R33 Boost Controller Help

[xDethKlokx]

I've recently started looking into boost controllers and may get one, but the only thing i need help on is locating the hoses needed to contect it all up, i'm not 100% sure what/ where I'm meant to be looking at.

[GTSBoy]

Are you going to do anything with the ECU?

[xDethKlokx]

Depends on if it needs to be adjusted

[GTSBoy]

You can add a couple of pounds and then the ECU will start to get all emo and after that any more boost is a waste of time, as you will get slower instead of faster.

Adding a boost controller is easy. There is a vacuum/boost line from the compressor outlet to the wastegate actuator. On a stock R33 it goes via the boost control solenoid valve. You put your boost controller into that line. But the details of how and what depend on the type of controller you are installing.

[xDethKlokx]

I'll need pictures on that because i'm still learning a whole bunch of stuff

[GTSBoy]

Spoon feeding? Or self help?

All this stuff has already been written. Search.

[xDethKlokx]

I have searched but it nothing that really helps, it also appears mine has been modified once but the previous owner detached it and bypassed it to run stock again so it does make it slightly difficult

[D.I.Y. Mik]

These ones

The top one is the plenum to boost guage line you can tee into that.

the blue one is probably the actuator line, you have to take a closer look.

I did a Hks evc 4, they come with instructions anyway.

[GTSBoy]

Best not to assume he is planning an EBC. Might only be thinking about a bleeder. In which case, connecting to the plenum is not the best idea.

[D.I.Y. Mik]

You mean a boost tee? that goes on the blue line

they are dodgey

If your talking about something else i have no idea.

I just read the instructions and know whats what in my engine bay.

Edited July 27, 2012 by D.I.Y. Mik

[gotRICE?]

looking at the photo you posted, the best place for you to put it is in that hose with the big white cable tie on it.

But i wouldnt recommend doing it unless you have some sort of aftermarket ECU. If not, leaving it stock, or putting in a 10psi R32 actuator will give you better results.

The fact that the boost solenoid is missing in your car would suggest that possibly you already have and R32 actuator. Unless some bleed valve is hidden away somewhere we cant see.

[GTSBoy]

You mean a boost tee? that goes on the blue line

they are dodgey

If your talking about something else i have no idea.

I just read the instructions and know whats what in my engine bay.

Simple bleeder based boost controllers are anything but dodgy. They just don't offer as rigid control as other devices. They are actually far more trustworthy in terms of what happens when they fail (which they don't) whereas an electronic boost controller can totally destroy an engine if it fails.

But there is more than one way to skin a cat. I built my own boost controller from a collection of pneumatic devices (relief valve, pressure regulator and one way valve) and it offers solid boost control. Cheaper than an EBC, more reliable than an EBC, easier to install than an EBC, easier to set up than an EBC. Don't know why I would want an EBC.

The other thnig I can never work out, is why people want to measure the boost inside the plenum and closed loop control that with an EBC. Let's say that you are at partial throttle. You do not want full boost. Yet the EBC is measuring less than full boost, so it slams the wastegate shut and makes the turbo work like a motherf**ker to create umpteen bazzillion psi of boost between the turbo and the partially closed throttle butterfly - which is then wasted across the throttle butterfly because you have it partially closed. Worse, you have to keep the throttle even more closed than you otherwise would because of the high pressure upstream of the throttle. Worse, the car will be twitchy (go over bumps, have you ankle move a mm, have the load on the engine increase/decrease drastically as the throttle moves a tiny amount.

Whereas, if you take your boost signal from upstream of the throttle butterfly - ie, from the compressor housing, like the OEM does it, then things tend to work the way that they are supposed to.

Edited July 28, 2012 by GTSBoy

[gotRICE?]

I cant say i have ever met anyone that takes a EBC boost feed of the plenum.

What exactly do you mean by an EBC failing can totally destroy an engine? My EBC is an electro magnetic solenoid, as i thought most of them were. . If it fails, its open. Therefore only wastegate boost will be reached.

Easy to install. On vac line from the intercooler piping, one from the actuator. One ground wire, and one signal wire. Hardly rocket science.

An EBC doesnt "slam shut" a wastegate anyway. They are always shut. The EBC just doesnt let it open untill the desired boost is reached. Exactly the same principle as a manual boost Tee. I dont see what the issue is .

Sounds to me like you have had an issue before so totally rubbish every other EBC on the market because of it.

[GTSBoy]

I cant say i have ever met anyone that takes a EBC boost feed of the plenum.

Closed loop boost control has to measure boost where you want it controlled. Boost, by most people's definition, is positive inlet manifold pressure. Ergo, it is common for the boost sense line to be attached to the plenum. Read more boost controller threads on this very forum for evidence of that.

What exactly do you mean by an EBC failing can totally destroy an engine? My EBC is an electro magnetic solenoid, as i thought most of them were. . If it fails, its open. Therefore only wastegate boost will be reached.

Any solenoid can fail open or closed. Also, the electronics can fail in such a way as to drive the solenoid to cause overboost.

Easy to install. On vac line from the intercooler piping, one from the actuator. One ground wire, and one signal wire. Hardly rocket science.

Still more work, including running stuff into the cabin, than the alternative.

An EBC doesnt "slam shut" a wastegate anyway. They are always shut. The EBC just doesnt let it open untill the desired boost is reached. Exactly the same principle as a manual boost Tee. I dont see what the issue is .

A wastegate is not an "open or closed" digital device. They are a modulated analog device. If the boost sense line is taken from the plenum and the throttle is mostly closed, then the wastegate could well be shut when it would be better for it to be partially open.

Granted, this is only a transitory effect, as the mostly closed throttle will unload the engine and hence reduce the exhaust flow and take the turbo off boost anyway.....but it is a real effect.

Sounds to me like you have had an issue before so totally rubbish every other EBC on the market because of it.

No. I have never installed an EBC on my car. Have never had a bad experience with one. My pneumatic one works just fine, and I don't need to keep up with the Jones. But I have seen more than one problematical EBC installation. Some caused by the EBC equipment itself, and quite a few caused by people not understanding what they were installing.

I wasn't rubbishing EBCs. I made a few very valid points about why non electronic controllers are not "dodgy" and pointed out that EBCs are not magical devices with no problems. Reading skills required.

Edited July 28, 2012 by GTSBoy

[gotRICE?]

Your actually right. I did misread some of your points. Perks of forum browsing on a phone perhaps.

I still dont see the difficulty in installation. If your going for full electronic boost control, chances are you have an aftermarket ECU that does it anyway. So for the boost control to fail, the ECU itself would have to be failing wouldnt it? And if you have an aftermaket ECU, the stock solenoid is no longer required, therefore, you have a signal and an earth wire already run to the ECU free, all you need to do is turn the output on.

I totally agree with your point on setting up closed loop. I have no idea why anyone would even try set it up taking a line from a plenum. Stock is best IMO.

Maybe i totally ignored threads with anything about taking a EBC/boost tap feed from the plenum because its not how i do it. But i dont recall seeing much, and i hope people were put right. The only boost related item that should be plumbed into the plenum is a boost gauge. Not saying it wont work elsewhere, but it wont read vac lol.

Maybe one day if you get a chance you should have a go with an EBC (preferably an ECU controlled one). They are a pretty decent item. I had alot of fun setting up mine. RPM/Load based etc. Brings on full boost in my R33 with GT30 by 3400rpm.

I have logs of 17psi by 3200rpm too, this being 5th gear.. so kinda irrelevant as how often do you really do that

For me, any partial throttle just cruising, i want my wastegate shut tighter than a nuns honey pot. Any airflow the GT30 can give me at lower rpm the better. Or its just a pig to drive around town. Id wonder how a wastegate would be open at all with such low (no) pressure against it anyway. The actuator spring should be tight enough to keep it shut untill, if not just before the spring rating.

I use my solenoid to my advantage. As just before desired boost is reached, the wastegate starts to crack. Loosing boost. So i have the solenoid not allowing this. I guess thats a downside to an internal gate.

In the end, im always happy to be proven wrong. I like to learn, and make my setup the best it is capable of. (+ID1000, external gate and E85 would be nice... but hey, cant win em all!)

[scotty nm35]

But there is more than one way to skin a cat. I built my own boost controller from a collection of pneumatic devices (relief valve, pressure regulator and one way valve) and it offers solid boost control.

Any chance you could show us this setup? I am planning a mechanical boost solution myself, Turbosmart can't supply more than 26psi of spring in their new external gates either.

My blitz DSBC with MAC valve seems to have run out of resolution and can't control boost (spikes sending the tune into overboost protection.) Plus you need a degree to tune the damn thing correctly. Pneumatic control sounds much better...

[GTSBoy]

It's Julian Edgar's boost controller design from last century. I built it more or less as in the article, and it works well.

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-Audis-DIY-Boost-Control-Part-1/A_111348/article.html

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-Audis-DIY-Boost-Control-Part-2/A_111350/article.html

The exact same valves are still available, but there are plenty of other options. Running fairly high boost pressure, you might end up needing to set it up with the stiffer springs. But I could get 17+ psi with mine with the lower value springs. The one way valve to vent the air back out of it when off boost is essential. You can scrounge one out of any Toyota (they have about a zillion of them).

[D.I.Y. Mik]

GTSBoy you are a DIY master!

Much respect.

[GTSBoy]

It's not really deserved. I just used JE's design. The only credit to me is that I'm a tightarse but didn't want a simple bleeder.