Another Oil Control Question.. Sorry

[abr33]

Hi guys/girls, I did a track day at eastern creek and I discovered an issue with oil, and infact, a shitload of it.

First run out, drove hard whole time, no worries (that i noticed) just a bit of oil marks near breather.

Second one out, bit of oil coming out breather.

By the end of third, when I stopped oil was running everywhere and dripping on floor, and did all day then on.

I know what your thinking, oil control not sorted or busted rings etc.

Tested compression, with throttle shut and all plugs in but the one in test, crank for 6-8 seconds, I got 132-139 psi range.

Considered the gaps set to 23 ish thou as reccomended, and my gapping varying a thou or so, thats pretty good I think with heat soaked engine, no oil used in test, head and block are full height, std comp pistons, std gasket etc. and 5k on engine this sounds ok?

Was running low boost (15psi/260kw)

My oil control is all done by me, includes oversize baffled and gated sump (7.5L), improved pickup, tomei pump set at 65 psi, redline 15w/50 oil, enlarged oil drains, all other drains drilled to 9mm, external head drain, front sump top to cam cover 1 inch breather, catch can returning to sump , semi baffled covers, pcv block, 1 ish mm head restrictors.

Oil was only getting to 95 degrees max on track, and towards the end I wasnt flogging it at all, not even full boost except main straight, So im after ideas of why im getting so much progressively blowing out, is it that I run catch can full of tank foam and it holds the oil in the foam assisting it out? Is it oil pumping up catch return? is it that I overfill sump by 10mm?

Im guessing over 2 hours i lost 2 cups of oil... maybe 1..

This never happens when I do 0-200 km/h runs.

I think I might set up sump vent rather than setting it back to cam covers...

Not sure what details im missing so ask what else is needed.

After and ideas/feedback or what Iv done wrong in my setup

Edited September 20, 2012 by abr33

[DVS JEZ]

What engine?

Post a pic of how ur breathers are set up

[kitto]

Hmmm, thats not good. Sounds like you've set your oil control up pretty well and its still breathing.

Personally i wouldn't be draining the catch can back to the sump. The oil that gets to the catch can is usually pretty nasty.

I would vent the sump to the top of the catch can instead of to the cam covers. Your rear head drain is the 'breather' for the head.

What side is the sump vent and catch can return on? The inlet side as high as possible?

Overfilling your sump 10mm past the FULL line shouldn't make an issue. Its when you really over fill the sump does it pump oil out.

Whats your piston to bore clearance? It really does sound like heavy blow by to me.

[The Bogan]

Where are the returns to the sump located, mine were to low and oil was being pushed up them, after fitting a one way valve on the catch can return and moving another to a tee on the turbo oil return all is good.

And returning your oil to the sump is fine, the only reason people think its not is because they see the oil that comes out of a non return can, in a non return system the catch can will fill with oil and moisture and also during the cooling proccess it absorbs moisture giving it the milky apperance, BUT, with the return to sump the moisture will be cooked off by the oil getting hot.

Its like the condensation forming inside of a car when you are sitting in it, the insine becomes warmer than the outside thus creating condensation, when you turn on your demister it evaporates.

There is a stiky thread with oil control in the Forced Induction section.

[abr33]

What engine?

Post a pic of how ur breathers are set up

Rb25, ill see if i have a pic i dont think so but

Hmmm, thats not good. Sounds like you've set your oil control up pretty well and its still breathing.

Personally i wouldn't be draining the catch can back to the sump. The oil that gets to the catch can is usually pretty nasty.

I would vent the sump to the top of the catch can instead of to the cam covers. Your rear head drain is the 'breather' for the head.

What side is the sump vent and catch can return on? The inlet side as high as possible?

Overfilling your sump 10mm past the FULL line shouldn't make an issue. Its when you really over fill the sump does it pump oil out.

Whats your piston to bore clearance? It really does sound like heavy blow by to me.

4 thou i think bore clearance, If blowby was the big issue, why would it slowly get worse, shouldnt it be a spewing mess first lap?

Where are the returns to the sump located, mine were to low and oil was being pushed up them, after fitting a one way valve on the catch can return and moving another to a tee on the turbo oil return all is good.

And returning your oil to the sump is fine, the only reason people think its not is because they see the oil that comes out of a non return can, in a non return system the catch can will fill with oil and moisture and also during the cooling proccess it absorbs moisture giving it the milky apperance, BUT, with the return to sump the moisture will be cooked off by the oil getting hot.

Its like the condensation forming inside of a car when you are sitting in it, the insine becomes warmer than the outside thus creating condensation, when you turn on your demister it evaporates.

There is a stiky thread with oil control in the Forced Induction section.

Returns to sump about 25mm down from block on passenger side front of sump.

Any thoughts on using the fueltank foam in can? might be holding it? or hard in corners blowing it back up to can?

[kitto]

Returns to sump about 25mm down from block on passenger side front of sump.

This is not good! It MUST be on the drivers side as high up on the sump as possible. I think you'll find oil is working its way up this tube.

Any thoughts on using the fueltank foam in can? might be holding it? or hard in corners blowing it back up to can?

You've got foam in your can?

Is it vented to atmosphere?

[abr33]

The cans vented to amto, and its got foam cut to fit perfectly in it.

But I understand passenger is low pressure side?? what If I plumb to turbo dump?

[abr33]

Cornering seems to be the offender, the faster i got throughout the day, the less I revved it (because of oil), the more turning force..

[kitto]

The cans vented to amto, and its got foam cut to fit perfectly in it.

But I understand passenger is low pressure side?? what If I plumb to turbo dump?

How big is the can? I'd pull the foam out and make up some proper baffles for it. So the oil gets trapped in the can and works it way down to the bottom, but the air pressure can easily vent.

Passenger side can be considered the low pressure side of the crankcase, but the bigger issue is on an RB the LH side of the sump sits a fair bit lower than the RH side as its slanted to the left.

You should really try and put those fittings at the very top of the sump line, right below where it bolts to the block. Better yet, changing it to the RH side.

You could plum it into the turbo drain, but that could also restrict the ability for the oil to drain from the turbo.

You could try putting it into the 'VCT drain" forwards of the engine mount. Just delete that drain from the head all together (NEO's never had them) or try and tee them together.

[The Bogan]

I have no clue on the foam, I myself would get rid of it and baffle it, as for the drains/vents, plumb the head drain into the Turbo oil drain and get a EARLS one way valve for the can drain.

The left hand of the sump is a PITA as the only spot to put a fitting on the sump is to low and oil will push its way up.

To test it remove the line from where it connects to the can, then undo one of the breathers and block the others, then blow into the breather, if oil comes out of the line from the sump (like mine did) then you either need to move it or put in a oneway valve.

Where do you live, if its in Sydney I could show you what I mean if my description of the proccess isnt making sense.

[abr33]

How big is the can? I'd pull the foam out and make up some proper baffles for it. So the oil gets trapped in the can and works it way down to the bottom, but the air pressure can easily vent.

Passenger side can be considered the low pressure side of the crankcase, but the bigger issue is on an RB the LH side of the sump sits a fair bit lower than the RH side as its slanted to the left.

You should really try and put those fittings at the very top of the sump line, right below where it bolts to the block. Better yet, changing it to the RH side.

You could plum it into the turbo drain, but that could also restrict the ability for the oil to drain from the turbo.

You could try putting it into the 'VCT drain" forwards of the engine mount. Just delete that drain from the head all together (NEO's never had them) or try and tee them together.

This might be my issue then, I might tee into vct drain and/or turbo drain. I will put a second can on drivers side where my sump breather taken from front rhs top of sump and run it as independent to the top of the engine

and can is approx 2L

Edited September 20, 2012 by abr33

[abr33]

I have no clue on the foam, I myself would get rid of it and baffle it, as for the drains/vents, plumb the head drain into the Turbo oil drain and get a EARLS one way valve for the can drain.

The left hand of the sump is a PITA as the only spot to put a fitting on the sump is to low and oil will push its way up.

To test it remove the line from where it connects to the can, then undo one of the breathers and block the others, then blow into the breather, if oil comes out of the line from the sump (like mine did) then you either need to move it or put in a oneway valve.

Where do you live, if its in Sydney I could show you what I mean if my description of the proccess isnt making sense.

I understand what your saying, and I know without testing oil will come out... And thanks for the offer but Im 3.5 hours out of sydney lol.

Ill invest in a 1 way valve

[abr33]

The current catch can, which will be now modified

Even though I run atmo vented, the intake sucks all the smoke in so its not being polluting

Edited September 20, 2012 by abr33

[The Bogan]

http://www.earls.com.au/files/2011earlscatalog.pdf

251010ERL

-10 Reinforced Viton® with Aluminum Support 150 PSI Max .5 PSI to seal, This is the one I use.

There is a -12 available but its a bit more expensive >

253012ERL

-12

[kitto]

So where exactly is the oil spewing out?

The breather in the catch can?

I can see for a start, you need much bigger breathers in the catch can.

I'm going to put my money on the location of the drains to the sump though. The more i think about the more i suspect it.

[abr33]

http://www.earls.com...arlscatalog.pdf

251010ERL

-10 Reinforced Viton® with Aluminum Support 150 PSI Max .5 PSI to seal, This is the one I use.

There is a -12 available but its a bit more expensive >

253012ERL

-12

Thanks for that Mark

So where exactly is the oil spewing out?

The breather in the catch can?

I can see for a start, you need much bigger breathers in the catch can.

I'm going to put my money on the location of the drains to the sump though. The more i think about the more i suspect it.

Oil is pumping out the breather on the catch can, the breather size is fairly small I guess..

[kitto]

Yeah ok, ummm fix where you've got the fittings in the sump, they must be put up higher.

Get rid of the foam, that single baffle plate looks okish.

I'd put two 1" breathers on the tank as well, as high as possible.

Ideally, you want your catch can return to return to the sump, but never be covered with oil that is forced to the side of the pan under G forces.

The oil, if any that spews out of the rocker covers into can, if any should be able to flow to the bottom of the tank as easy as possible with the vapours having a very easy outlet to atmosphere, but having a good baffling system to prevent the oil getting out the breathers as well.

[abr33]

Thanks for the help, Ill get onto it when I get a chance. I will put bigger breathers on can and remove foam and put drains into a better spot

[kitto]

No worries, do you think you have oil coming out of your rocker covers?

[abr33]

No worries, do you think you have oil coming out of your rocker covers?

Hard to say, there is oil in the lines to the can but obviously theres going to be a mist of oil at best coming through so I cant say for sure if thats where my quantity is from, Id say its not the biggest issue as iv been on an airstrip and done countless 0-240/250 km/h runs on high boost and there wasnt any pumping out, just an oily residue left on vent filter