Liability Insurance

[m.j.h]

Okay so there has been some back and forth talk bout how unofficial cruise organisers are at risk etc due to no insurance

So I thought I would make this thread so it can be discussed, explained etc all in the one place and what needs to be done to make a cruise an official SAU event.

So any questions comments etc post them up here

[Duncan]

well I have never heard of a cruise organiser being sued for what occurred.....even in cases involving fatalities

but even so I have never and will never organise something myself...I am not putting my house on the line because someone turns up and acts like an idiot.

SAU NSW organises cruises regularly, and under the current CAMS rules there is no cost for the permits - so why not work with the club if you want to organise a cruise?

[Pezhead]

Well, I don't want this to get out of hand but unfortunately for insurance you have to think of the worse case scenarios and have your mitigation plans set on them.

When holding any sort of event in public there are always considerations. Luckily, we've never had any major incidents at any of our events. Key to that is our explicit citing that poor behavior won't be tolerated and will be reported. But that doesn't mean we ignore them. Quite the opposite, we regularly discuss prevention measures at our exec meetings.

I'm no lawer, but best to consider some of the following:

1) What if the public reports the event - can you prove you have not done anything illegal and that you have taken appropriate precautions?

2) What if somehow public property is damaged - or worse a member of the public is hurt?

3) If the authorities do show up how do you approach them and demonstrate your considerations?

The SAU NSW CAMS affiliation does provide us with Public Liability cover for our social events. This allows us to register our official events and provide basic cover. Also those events organised by the club are run from the club - a legal entity.

For small gatherings it probably isn't worth considering. But as soon as an organsied event reaches something that the public would deem "sizable" should be considered.

[xntrq]

I would see how a cruise under a organization such as SAU would have to be regulated, but I don't see how unofficial cruises would lay all the liabilities on the person who organized a cruise? I mean its just like driving regularly on the road with other cars. Just that these cars happen to be in the same series as your own and heading to the same destination?

If I organized a cruise, one of the idiots behind me decides to be a hero and speeds up and rear end some other car, I don't see how in any way I would remotely be responsible. Unless the cruise involves me directing them to anal some traffic or driving through the water to TAS, then thats a different story, but even with official cruises. A car is a car, it should be registered and have CTP and at least 3rd party insurance anyway. It is up the driver of the vehicle or the other vehicle to be liable for any damages caused and IF somehow a car swerved onto the side walk and injured someone, CTP covers it does it not?

[BakemonoRicer]

A specific car club in Japan had very particular policies and would go about organising things a certain way.

Back then there wasnt internet so usually there would be an advert in the paper saying someone was selling handbags (or another item) , meet at Point A between say 11pm and 12pm, which was the cue for a run with the other cars. Just an example of their way to go about things in terms of organising.

Here are my thoughts

• If you post a thread stating that you will be cruising from Point A to Point B, you are making a statement. It is up to other peoples interpretation of that statement that will determine whether they to drive from Point A to Point B with you. This is not an organised event so to speak.
  
• If a cruise is organised via a member on a car forum, there is no direct evidence that the owner of that username was the one that posted it, therefore liability cannot be attributed to the user who posted that there would be a cruise (on the internet).
  
• If a bunch of similar cars are seen together via the cruise, it perhaps may be coincidental that similar cars are cruising in the same direction of travel. Who is to say the owners of these similar cars even know each other? I see plenty of camrys on the freeway, yet I dont think they are travelling on a cruise.
  
• Contrastingly, I think perhaps the reason SAU needs insurance because they are the organisation who is responsible official SAU sanctioned event, and therefore they are liable for what happens on this cruise as it can be prooven they were responsible for the organisation of it.
  

I think that anyone wishing to "accompany" a person from Point A to Point B within the SAU newcastle community, must abide by a very strict policy on safety. If you were ever a threat to yourself, the other people accompanying the person, or the public, you should be asked to leave immediately and not participate on any further cruises.

[Duncan]

if you guys think for a second that a cop is going to beleive the "we all just happened to be driving together at the same time to the same place, but no-one organised it" line, you need to have your heads read. Let alone if there was a formal investigation. Particularly if you have a post on the public internet organising it

[GTR-N1]

Yup

Cops have worked out what a 'sushi train' looks like + when it leaves the station.

[evil_weevil]

A car is a car, it should be registered and have CTP and at least 3rd party insurance anyway. It is up the driver of the vehicle or the other vehicle to be liable for any damages caused and IF somehow a car swerved onto the side walk and injured someone, CTP covers it does it not?

For a motor vehicle accident that is deemed an insured event by an insurer, yes. And we are talking general insurers so the likes is AAMI, NRMA etc.

generally if someone was injured in a car accident in a fender bender, if they have full comp their car would be covered. if a passenger or someone else was injured they are covered by the cars CTP. some CTP include driver at fault cover (limited cover though)

If there was a big accident involving property damage and death a general insurer may have limitations on to what is and what is not covered.

this is why registered clubs and businesses have liability cover to cover them from further events and large losses for example loss of income, death, disability etc. imagine if a cruise had met at a carpark of a business, something catastrophic happened and was found the cruise had been the direct cause. i.e. if they werent there the loss would not have occurred. that business will claim on their insurance, and the insurance will want to recover off someone. you.

[MBS206]

Exactly like chubbs said. If the "group" being together caused an issue that would otherwise not be present if theydodnt come together, the organizer is liable.

If us being on the road for example with 100 cars causes a traffic jam and forces an incident (not even an accident but some other issue) you would be liable.

[BakemonoRicer]

Exactly like chubbs said. If the "group" being together caused an issue that would otherwise not be present if theydodnt come together, the organizer is liable.

If us being on the road for example with 100 cars causes a traffic jam and forces an incident (not even an accident but some other issue) you would be liable.

Liability cannot be attributed to someone who makes a statement indicating they will be travelling from Point A to Point B. The person won't be responsible for the actions of anyone else travelling in the same point of travel, as the person did not organise them to be there and thus is not liable for their actions.

Making a statement is different to directly organising a cruise. There are a lot of loop holes...and it would be very hard to proove things that are on the internet.

[34GeeTeeTee]

Yup

Cops have worked out what a 'sushi train' looks like + when it leaves the station.

Semi OT, We had a car with the numberplates SU.55.HI on the weekends cruise, the sticker on the rear window explained all! Was an awesome day!

[D_I_F]

Benji you are arguing with the wrong people.

[BakemonoRicer]

Benji you are arguing with the wrong people.

Just trying to think out of the box at the moment, not arguing haha! I just think there are many loopholes....

I suggested those ideas to a couple of my mates who study law at uni and they seemed to more or less agree with me.

An organised event is considered different from a statement indicating from where someone is travelling on a specific day.

For example, if I said " I am travelling from charlestown square shopping centre to the Newcastle foreshore" and then a bunch of cars decide to follow me there, I am not liable for any of their actions (at least I would think).

That said, I still do think there'd be some element of risk.....=\

[Pezhead]

I work with someone who is going through an $400k court case where there was a direct and clear voilation of the law that was even well documented.

So, quick summary - if you are made of money you can probably chase all the loop holes you like to prove you were technically right. If not then try to stick inside some reasonable boundaries.

So at this point the legal interpretation is up to the readers. I think we all have our own opinions and suffice it to say that none of us want to test out the full extent.

[BakemonoRicer]

I work with someone who is going through an $400k court case where there was a direct and clear voilation of the law that was even well documented.

So, quick summary - if you are made of money you can probably chase all the loop holes you like to prove you were technically right. If not then try to stick inside some reasonable boundaries.

So at this point the legal interpretation is up to the readers. I think we all have our own opinions and suffice it to say that none of us want to test out the full extent.

Hmmm, thats definately food for thought Eric.

It is a bit worrying thinking the whole cruise organiser liability thing.

As a preventative measure, I think a safety policy would be a good idea for unofficial cruises....and if people dont abide by this safety policy then they will be asked to leave the cruise and wont be welcome on another cruise.

[MBS206]

Hmmm, thats definately food for thought Eric.

It is a bit worrying thinking the whole cruise organiser liability thing.

As a preventative measure, I think a safety policy would be a good idea for unofficial cruises....and if people dont abide by this safety policy then they will be asked to leave the cruise and wont be welcome on another cruise.

It's nothing to do with a safety policy. It's not just about people being idiots on the road.

If something can be proven to have happened because you were there, then you are liable, it's not just about the driving.

[Duncan]

off topic removed. keep it on topic or take it back to the wasteland