New Power Fc (V7.00) Ecr33 Timing Issue

[89CAL]

I thought I'd start a new thread for this seen as I was stealing the other one a bit. And I think this might be an issue if it turns out to be a problem with the new gen Power FC's

If you havent read the other thread I'll do a summary here.

Basically the Power FC is retarding around 10 Degrees when going from closed throttle to any throttle input. It will stay at 10 degrees retarded for about 1-2 seconds then go back to normal map at which point the car surges forward with a power boost. It appears like its going to the idle map then taking a second to realise its off closed throttle before reacting

This is a graph on the HC of timing, showing what is happening:

White and Red are gear changes where it is retarding the timing

Blue is a normal gear change with normal timing

So far I have tried:

Adjust TPS - No change, except when adjusting it to far so it didn't go into the idle map at all

Data Init - Changed injector and AFM settings only and went for a light drive, no change

Changed TPS vs IGN - In FC Edit, every value to 0, no results

Played with the IGN map - no results

Disconnected and turned off the boost control Kit - no result

Below 60 Degrees, everything works fine, so it must be fine in the cold start map, but as soon as it goes to std map, something goes wrong

I'm hoping its not faulty Power FC but I guess if thats the case I can get a replacement. Have emailed Apexi USA about it so hopefully they have answers

Any help is much appreciated, its frustrating me quite alot at the moment, considering my ancient Power FC (V2.20E) doesnt have this problem and then new one does.

[89CAL]

Have now tried unplugging VCT and going for a drive with no change (VCT plug is leaking oil, but its still clicking so sounds like its working)

unplugged the wtr temp sensors, gauge one made no difference (didnt expect it to) and ECU one just made it stick in Cold start

Does anyone know how to extract the information from the Power FC so you can view the coding, I've seen lines of code from power fc data before, but cant work out how to extract it at the moment, going to compare old with new to see if theres any answers in there.

[discopotato03]

I just had a thought and it may be a long shot but .

In one of the threads I think I mentioned that I set the 50c warm up setting to zero where the default is different .

Mine is not a fresh PFC but I can't remember what version it is .

It sounds like the thing is not coming out of "invisible learned idle mode" straight away and is retarding the ignition to pull what it thinks is a high idle back .

The only other thing I can think of is the scaling with Z32 AFMs may not be spot on at just off idle speeds .

A .

[89CAL]

The Wtr Temp (Cool) settings are the same as the old unit. Set at 0 retard at 60+ degrees

I suppose I could try putting 1 degree retard in there to see if it just always runs 1 degree less then normal, and I can just bump all the cells up 1 degree. Its worth a try I guess

Comparing the two (old vs new) Power FC settings in FC-Edit there is no difference at all in the Air flow curves for the VG30 AFM. The only difference is the IGN vs TPS settings which apparently arent used in the older versions of FC edit. Besides all this, as far as I know its the TPS that tells the ECU to return to the Idle map when at closed throttle (and perhaps this is compared with engine RPM also)

Might try the Wtr temp cool vs IGN, retard it 1 degree at +60 and see what happens, but don't think its going to be the answer

Thanks for the idea though, I'm open to any suggestions at this point. Its a bit frustrating, Thinking I might have to send it to Apexi

[89CAL]

No go on that, doesnt make a difference. It seems to work ok for the first minute or so, all gear changes seem ok, but then it starts after that. i've graphed it in FC Edit (chart) and the timing goes crazy when it does this. Have done some dodgy paint marking to show whats happening. Its got me a bit stuffed as to why the timing is jumping around like it is and then so smooth when the gear change is quick:

I hope this is just an isolated incident and not affecting all of the new Power FC's. Its bad news for me if so but good news for everyone else. Don't suppose anyone has a new one that can tell me if theirs does anything like this. Frustrating that everything is so good, and the car is running better then ever apart from this issue. It might not seem to bad, but you imagine making a snap decision at a roundabout to go through and then the car just goes nowhere for a moment, its not good

EDIT:

A thought has occured to me, am I running to much timing in the top row(s) (More then 40 degrees) and its cutting it back as a precautionary measure? I didn't think it did this but just a thought: UPDATE - No improvements as expected

Edited November 25, 2012 by 89CAL

[t_revz]

What was wrong with your old Powerfc Cal?

[89CAL]

What was wrong with your old Powerfc Cal?

Nothing at all really, its just (Im told) a really old version and is slow to write and read data, which I have noticed compared to the new one. The new one for whatever reason shows the car having less knock, I always knew I was getting false readings on the old one so thats a really good thing for me. It was basically just available at a good price and I thought I would update before mine decided to die. But in saying that its never showed signs of dying before.

I was trying to sell it but I may hang onto it for the moment till i can work out whats wrong with the new one

[STATUS]

done about 3 or 4 with no issues, sounds odd but it may be a dud ecu rare but possible.

[DVS JEZ]

Have had a brand new power fc not power up. So anythings possible

[89CAL]

Yeah I find it weird that if its a dud its only this one thing but looking a bit that way

I have some log files from FC-Pro if anyone wants a look

[rob82]

Have you got a valid Vehicle speed signal on both PFC's.

Generally when you have delta idle ignition maps, you need to lockout their effect via either vehicle speed or rpm or both.

[89CAL]

done about 3 or 4 with no issues, sounds odd but it may be a dud ecu rare but possible.

Where these all complete new tunes from scratch or was data bought across from older Power FC's? I think they will have been complete new tunes but just something else for me to think about. Might try and bring the old tune over to the new power FC with FC Pro. Don't expect to see any change but

Have you got a valid Vehicle speed signal on both PFC's.

Generally when you have delta idle ignition maps, you need to lockout their effect via either vehicle speed or rpm or both.

The logging I did with FC Pro shows both RPM and Speed about where they should be. Revs slowly rising and speed rising very slowly till the Timing returns to normal at which point it increases faster

[89CAL]

O.K i have made some sort of progress on this. It's not giving me the answer but I have found some proof that of where the problem lies, here is the explaination I've just been writing:

So when lifting off the ECU should realise TPS is back to idle and initiate fuel cut to the determined point (As tuned, the F/C AC on and off) right. So I have a permanent wideband setup and driving around now I’m just noticing that its taking a little longer for it to realise the throttle is closed, it drops down in the 10’s:1 AFR momentarily before going right to max lean. Now on the old Power FC when lifting off it went quickly to full rich then quickly to full lean, which is to be expected. So the new Power FC isn’t making this transition as quickly for some reason. I think this is the root cause of the problem.

Also if I stay off the throttle (In this case lets assume im in second) until the F/C window is reached and it goes back to having a readable AFR (Not just off the scale lean) and I then put my foot down, no such problems, it takes off fine.

I'm wondering if its just the TPS or is it something in the ECU. It just seems strange that it works faultlessly on the old Power FC

BTW, since the last post I have:

Used FC Pro to pull the tune from my old Power FC, done a data init on the new one and put the new tune on it. Have completed the self learn idle again. No results

Pulled the bridged neutral switch in case it thought the car was always in neutral, no results

Awaiting a reply from Apexi america, hopefully they reply soon

[DVS JEZ]

Did u just load the tune in or manually insert each value???

[89CAL]

I loaded the tune with FC-Pro but previously have done the data init and used the HC to just change the injector and AFM settings to go for a drive and see if it made a difference but it still had the problem then

The logs I have from FC-Pro show everything normal except for the timing, where it appears pretty much the same as the chart from FC edit above. FC-Pro is good for logging as it logs everything and you can select any point along the log and it tells you all values at that point

But it just isnt helping me at the moment

Logged a run with the old power FC and the only difference is there are voltages at the AN1 and AN3 points, but these have nothing to do with the Power FC when the FC-Hako is disconnected so I think thats a dead end

I pulled my TPS off and checked to make sure everything was working. And it looks like its 100% O.K

emailed APEXi Pacific before so hopefully get a response from them. At this point I just want to send it back for repairs/replacement

[rob82]

If it's commanding the low ignition values then it's software based; hence a software issue.

Hopefully it's an easy fix. Maybe it's something to do with how quick they allow the ignition to transition between commanded values....

A few of the high end ecu's like autronic can change how quickly ignition timing can be ramped in and out, wouldn't surprise me if PFC had similar background variables. This is usually only required on high compression engines where transient knock can be an issue.

[89CAL]

If it's commanding the low ignition values then it's software based; hence a software issue.

Hopefully it's an easy fix. Maybe it's something to do with how quick they allow the ignition to transition between commanded values....

A few of the high end ecu's like autronic can change how quickly ignition timing can be ramped in and out, wouldn't surprise me if PFC had similar background variables. This is usually only required on high compression engines where transient knock can be an issue.

Best answer so far, Thank you

Makes sense

Just not sure why its occuring at the moment. Wonder if I will have to send it back or if they will give me the stuff to re-write software on it. I highly doubt that but

[paulr33]

does the issue occur with stock maps after data init and the self idle adjust procedure

or does the issue only occur after your load your previous tune

[89CAL]

Appears to be all the time. I have loaded 2 different maps in there (albeit both maps from my car) and driven with data init performed and just the injector and AFM settings changed via hand controller just to get it moving. Havent got a reply from apexi yet. So think I try and contact Apexi america again and maybe get in touch with apexi japan

[STATUS]

Try initialising and loading only afm curve ignition and injection maps. Input injector size etc manually. Ignition vs tps is definitely updated