Formula 1 2013

[Roy]

If you have a subscription to AutoSport they have a good read on the Japanese GP. Basically RBR did the logical thing and split the strategy to cover Romain. It was all there for Webber to still be able to win...but meant he had to clear cars with low traction out of the slow corners....and in their opinion the best thing about splitting the strategy was putting Mark and Seb on different parts of the track so to avoid issues.

[PN-Mad]

Problem was front straight was accessed by a slow exit from the chicane. Now, Webz had a low downforce wing that was suppose to give great straight line, however it also hampered him getting out onto the main straight where the Lotus had better mechanical, and aero based grip. So in the end he just couldn't make up the deficit with DRS and the low downforce wing.

It was excruciating to watch for those two laps - I was willing him to pass that Lotus, but it just got out of the corner that much better.

That's how I saw it anyway.

[hrd-hr30]

yeah, but Webber chose to run that wing knowing the track and where the DRS zone was. No-one to blame but himself.

And it was more like 7 laps stuck behind Grosjean the way I remember it!

Only got past eventually because of lapped traffic hurting the Lotus in that chicane.

[ctjet]

Its only taken four consecutive championships for people to start really coming around to accepting Vettel

[hrd-hr30]

lol

yeah you can thank Webber's politicing and undermining of RBR and Vettel over the past 3 or 4 years for that. No-one likes a spoilt brat who gets everything handed to him on a platter with all the favouritism in Red Bull. Everyone sided with the self proclaimed underdog/battler stickin' it to da man. 3 years of that boiled over into hate of the finger while they all waited impatiently for something to hang all their hate on, and then god sent them Malaysia 2013. Suddenly it turns out that all the fans support team orders and hates the bloke who dared to ignore them, despite all appearances to the contrary over the preceding decade or more...

Edited October 15, 2013 by hrd-hr30

[dori34]

anyone notice when webber got P1 in qualy, the radio message wasn't as cheerful lol

maybe it was just me, bt when vettel gets it, they have a party.

[wolverine]

Nah we don't like Vettel because he is a dick.

Hamilton has reduced his douchiness and is being treated accordingly so it's not impossible.

[PN-Mad]

I hope Ricciardo isn't as innocent and oblivious to what's going to happen as I think he is...

[tweety bird]

Nah we don't like Vettel because he is a dick.

Hamilton has reduced his douchiness and is being treated accordingly so it's not impossible.

As much as I hate to say it it's true..

[djr81]

lol

yeah you can thank Webber's politicing and undermining of RBR and Vettel over the past 3 or 4 years for that. No-one likes a spoilt brat who gets everything handed to him on a platter with all the favouritism in Red Bull. Everyone sided with the self proclaimed underdog/battler stickin' it to da man. 3 years of that boiled over into hate of the finger while they all waited impatiently for something to hang all their hate on, and then god sent them Malaysia 2013. Suddenly it turns out that all the fans support team orders and hates the bloke who dared to ignore them, despite all appearances to the contrary over the preceding decade or more...

Webber is looking after his own interests. Just like every driver in the field. It isnt Webber that makes Tool look like a tool. Tool is a tool. It is evident even without taking Webbers interests into consideration.

Nah we don't like Vettel because he is a dick.

This.

I hope Ricciardo isn't as innocent and oblivious to what's going to happen as I think he is...

He aint stupid. He knows what he is in for. He also knows this is his big chance. Which he has worked for years to get.

[hrd-hr30]

Nah we don't like Vettel because he is a dick.

Hamilton has reduced his douchiness and is being treated accordingly so it's not impossible.

yeah that's what all his haters say. "He's a dick", "he's a tool", or "he's arogant", but in my experience none of them can articualte any actual reasons for it, other than Malaysia. It's just a general feeling that he must be a dick based on all the nonsense about RBR favouritism over so many years that's formed this impression in their minds...

Hamilton stopped winning. Reckon that's got anything to do with it? He also left the team with the fastest car last year and went to a team trying to fight their way up. As said before everyone loves an underdog battler.

Edited October 15, 2013 by hrd-hr30

[Roy]

It isnt Webber that makes Tool look like a tool. Tool is a tool. It is evident even without taking Webbers interests into consideration.

Exactly.

There is no denying that Vettel is a dedicated, calculating and very talented guy. If you read back through what James Allen, DC and even Joe Saward have said over the years that the culture of the team is very foccussed on guarding Vettel. For me Malaysia was the first obvious thing that Vettel did publicly that the team couldnt spin away. There are so many seeds that hint at what control Vettel had within the team.

Does it change anything? Not really. Webber simply isnt as quick every weekend. If he was he would have bagged 2010 but he had a rather poor final few races (typical of his form eveyr seeason...strong in the middle, hopeless at the start and finish)

I hate Vettel because he has only ever been himself publicly for 10 days. His actions in Malaysia and the subsequent week when he came out and simply said "I was quicker and I get paid to win" If he towed that line I would respect him more. But he goes back to his PR cover of not being the arrogant, cut throat prick he is.

And the main reason I dont like Vettel...is how he puts his team mate to the sword. Doesnt help that its Webber, but anyone who drives liek Perez on Button is wrong. Vettel pulls moves on Webber that he knows wouldnt fly on other cars as he knows when push comes to shove he has the support of the team and Webber will take avoiding action. Perez does the same on Button and thats the reason I hate Perez. Looking at how Kimi and Romain play....MEGA respect to how Button and Hamo races and how Rosberg and Hamo race....but Perez and Vettel put their team mates to the sword in passing and I dont like how they use the politics to help them get places on the track

[wolverine]

How about not taking the blame in the sphincter of the universe despite being responsible for the impact and then having the team back him? Sure Chin was told to turn the engine down just prior to this so yeah I struggle to articulate my dislike.

I am not sure your winning/losing thing holds much credibility I still didn't like Schuey even when he was driving at Merc.

[hrd-hr30]

like I said, no-one can articulate any actual reason other than Malaysia. And before Malaysia 2013, everyone hated team orders and loved it when drivers rebelled against them. Just not when it's Vettel.

The proof of the blinkers is blaming Vettel for pulling overly agressive moves on Webber, again without naming a single example. Remember Malaysia that you were just whinging about? Webber damn near put him in the wall. That's over the line demarking the track - that is against the rules these days, you must leave a car width. Webber is very lucky he didn't get penalised for that.

Edit: The sphincter of the universe 2010? Racing incident. Don't think Vettel was totally to blame - the car in front has the running and always pushes the other car over on the track. That's racing. You'll see it happen in every single GP without any problem whatsoever - except this single example in the sphincter of the universe 2010... It all came about from another example of over-agressive defending against your team mate from Webber. The position was already well and truly lost.

At any rate, that's not the cause of the booing that didn't start till 4 years later is it?

Edited October 15, 2013 by hrd-hr30

[wolverine]

Safety car Japan....lol

[ctjet]

am not sure your winning/losing thing holds much credibility I still didn't like Schuey even when he was driving at Merc.

In many ways, Vettel does resemble schui

I think now a lot of schui fans are having a hard time adjusting to sitting on the other side of what many fans were forced to sit through a decade ago

But after seeing Vettel in press conferences and talk shows and what have you, he does come across as a likable enough bloke and isn't involved in much underhandedness at all. I'd struggle to pick a better ambassador for the sport in the current crop of drivers

[Roy]

like I said, no-one can articulate any actual reason other than Malaysia. And before Malaysia 2013, everyone hated team orders and loved it when drivers rebelled against them. Just not when it's Vettel.

The proof of the blinkers is blaming Vettel for pulling overly agressive moves on Webber, again without naming a single example. Remember Malaysia that you were just whinging about? Webber damn near put him in the wall. That's over the line demarking the track - that is against the rules these days, you must leave a car width. Webber is very lucky he didn't get penalised for that.

Edit: The sphincter of the universe 2010? Racing incident. Don't think Vettel was totally to blame - the car in front has the running and always pushes the other car over on the track. That's racing. You'll see it happen in every single GP without any problem whatsoever - except this single example in the sphincter of the universe 2010... It all came about from another example of over-agressive defending against your team mate from Webber. The position was already well and truly lost.

At any rate, that's not the cause of the booing that didn't start till 4 years later is it?

LOL, Its fine that we see things differently but I know how this ends. I name the races where I think Vettel was ruthless and you will defend them...so not going to bother.

It dates back waaay before Malaysia 2013. How about it started in Fuji 2007! Vettel did nothing wrong and I didnt dislike him for his error...but I hated the fact that he robbed Webber a shot at Hamilton and the teams first ever win. That would have changed the dynamic of Vettel coming into the team if Webber was already a GP winner like Vettel.

[89CAL]

I'm starting to wonder what could have been next year if Lotus could have kept all the big names they've lost and earnt a few more major sponsers. That car is starting to look like a real winner, but I fear that next year will show the results of the technical loses and seeming financial trouble that has occured this year.

Kimi is moving to Ferrari, and I'll be happy if he starts winning there. But I would have loved him and Lotus to be a winning combination next year. I love the car and the teams attitude. But I guess we will never know what might have been

I used to defend Vettel when all my friends were haters, since Malaysia I can't be bothered, even though I understand why he did it.

I don't bash him though because I know that he isn't just in the right place at the right time. He is a fantastic driver. He is a bit lucky that he stepped into the Red Bull at the time they started dominating (Although we all knew thats what would happen when Newey went there) but you can't deny that the boy can drive

I'm sad to say this, but Webber has been disappointing this year and I think he has made the right choice for next year. You can kinda tell that his heart isn't in it anymore

[djr81]

I'm starting to wonder what could have been next year if Lotus could have kept all the big names they've lost and earnt a few more major sponsers. That car is starting to look like a real winner, but I fear that next year will show the results of the technical loses and seeming financial trouble that has occured this year.

Kimi is moving to Ferrari, and I'll be happy if he starts winning there. But I would have loved him and Lotus to be a winning combination next year. I love the car and the teams attitude. But I guess we will never know what might have been

I suspect they will go the way of a lot of other teams with not enough sponsorship and no factory support, like errr, Lotus back when it was actually Lotus. Also like Williams. And Brabham. And Jordon. And now McLaren if Honda dont get their sht together this time around. Owners get tired of footing massive bills with no prospect of A: Winning or B:Breaking even. Or they just can no longer afford it.

[PRO_32]

mate, you're the one who said it's no wonder he get's boo'd because of comments like that .

Yep reminded me of him bitching about webber "being to slow and move him outta the way" in malaysia before knifing mark in the back. And before you tell me about the evils of team orders and how we use to all hate it, i have nothing against what he did on track hell it was great racing and entertaining, just that at some stage before the race he should have given the heads up that its on and he's going for it.

The fact is, people like you are just dying to find something to hate him for. Doesn't mater what he does.The finger waving has been cut right back for the last few wins, but why? Every driver waves a finger when they win! Why does it only become an issue when Vettel does it? That's right, because people are dying to find something to hate him for.

lol what tha... people like me?? i dont hate any driver (closest ive come is hamo in 07 /08 and i now rate him quite highly.) and cmon dying to find something to hate him for, Really. He does that all on his own

The second stop nonsense is another example of the completely unfounded RBR conspiracy against Webber. His second stint was 14 laps. The average second stint of all the 3 stoppers was 14.6 laps. That's bang on a perfect 3 stop strategy, not an exceptionally early pit stop to hurt Webber's race. The lap before the second pit stop, he lost 2.1sec to Grosjean! Looked like he had burnt the tyres up closing the gap and trying to pass Grosjean in the previous 3 laps.

I guess i dont know if 3 stops was the best call for mark or not, Neither do you as we dont have anything besides basic timing data and just what we saw and read during the race, I dont see how he lost 2.1 sec to gro before the second stop? the lap chart shows he was catching him then they called him in which is why he questioned the stop. In the 3 laps prior to marks stop MW did a 97.75 / 97.43 / 97.8 RG all low 98's so hardly lost 2.1 secs

It was almost 15sec with 13 laps to go. Then it was about 10sec with 11 laps to go and Vettel closing in fast on fresh tyres.For Mark to go to the end on the Hard tyres without pitting would have meant going further than anyone else did on those tyres. Webber has never been known for being gentle on tyres, and he was running a lower downforce setup to try and improve his overtaking chances, that also meant more tyre wear. Everyone knows what happens to these Pirelis when you stay out on them too long.There's no conspiracy to find here. Webber wasn't fast enough.

the lap times between mark and seb were pretty comparable before they pitted mark for his 1st stop no evidence of his tyres going off nor did mark jump on the radio complaining about them, His race was undermined there and then. They commited to 3 stops for mark giving the better stratagy to vet.

And just for the record fundamentally nothing wrong with that, Playing the odds id back seb every time too. However if i was the team i wouldnt get on skysports and go on about how equal things are either. And your right Webber usually isnt fast or reliable enough, but i think in this race he might have been.

They also told Vettel the same thing early on - to hold a 2sec gap to Mark. It is commonplace for teams to advise their driver sto stay 2sec back to conserve their tyres if they can't pass the guy in front. It's been happening all season. And last season... This is the lamest conspiracy theory yet.

Yep and they also said after that "your not racing webber." Why not?

Vettel is doing his job on track to a tee, A role model lead driver, couldnt ask for more. he is a great driver backed by a great team and delivering like nobodys business All the stars have alligned for Him at RBR and an ERA is written in the history books.

But he just comes across as a bit of a wanker.

I think if the VET WEB relationship was properly managed in 2010 and the correct hard decisions made back then all this bullshit could have been avoided.