Formula 1 2013

[sh@un]

I hope Ricciardo isn't as innocent and oblivious to what's going to happen as I think he is...

you'd have to assume he knows the score exactly when his team 'mate' next year will be a 4-time world champ; but I doubt any of that will at all diminish the awesomeness of piloting a car at the very pointy end of competitiveness versus a perenial mid-field jalopy

[Roy]

It wont matter for squat If Disco Dan cant put the thing on the same row or same row +1 as Vettel then it wont matter about his approach to the racing. He has looked very good since Silverstone and RBR state that his test was smack on Vettels pace fuel corrected at Silverstone. So will be interesting to see a guy with a tank full of energy renew the challenge on Vettel

Meanshile...watching the post race Sky footage....I think I love Susie Wolff.

[sh@un]

she's about a 7

maybe 8.5 after some beers

[Ants]

she's about a 7

maybe 8.5 after some beers

agreed.

[Roy]

But she has a Scottish accent and is faster in a car than I ever will be. Thats a winning combo in my books. But its that accent that moves her to the top shelf

[wolverine]

Och aye the noo!!

[White GTS-T]

7 out of 10. Come on guys.

[Angus Smart]

That dirty, dirty scottish accent

[Ants]

That dirty, dirty scottish accent

heres a dirty scot for ya

[hrd-hr30]

I guess i dont know if 3 stops was the best call for mark or not, Neither do you as we dont have anything besides basic timing data and just what we saw and read during the race, I dont see how he lost 2.1 sec to gro before the second stop? the lap chart shows he was catching him then they called him in which is why he questioned the stop. In the 3 laps prior to marks stop MW did a 97.75 / 97.43 / 97.8 RG all low 98's so hardly lost 2.1 secs

the lap times between mark and seb were pretty comparable before they pitted mark for his 1st stop no evidence of his tyres going off nor did mark jump on the radio complaining about them, His race was undermined there and then. They commited to 3 stops for mark giving the better stratagy to vet.

Ah, good old RBR conspiracy theories... It's never Mark's fault he loses, just ask him! In his usual undermining, politicing way, Mark played this angle up in his interviews to fuel the fire and keep the controversy going. That's been his way for the past 3 or 4 years since Vettel got the better of him...

Every analysis of the race shows the criticism of the strategy has no merit, and disagrees with your assessment of his tyres and relative pace:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/10/analysis-did-red-bull-favour-vettel-over-webber-in-japanese-gp-strategy-calls/

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/10/13/2013-japanese-grand-prix-tyre-strategies-and-pit-stops-2/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24511974

The Race Chart also shows Webber losing time to both Grosjean and Vettel towards the end of his first stint.

The 2.1sec I got from some article must have been cumulative - my mistake. This chart shows Webber consistently loosing 0.4 or 0.5s a lap for 3 laps and as JA said in his article, he lost 0.6 in the first two sectors of his in-lap. But it certainly shows he had fallen off the pace of Grosjean, and look at how Vettel closed the gap to Grosjean as soon as Webber got out of his way. Simple fact is Vettel was just hanging back managing his tyres, while Mark burnt his up early in the first stint. Can't blame the team - they told him to hang back 2sec to save his tyres, just like they did to Vettel. Difference is what the drivers did in the car.

Edited October 15, 2013 by hrd-hr30

[Roy]

Read those articles and you will see that the talk is around the second stop at 25 laps and RBRs desire (sensible thing to do) to cover the Lotus of Romain by splitting the two cars. Webebr himself said that he couldnt cover both of them. If he tried he could have lost out to both

[ctjet]

Isnt Seb leading the championship? Shouldn't they be backing that pony at this end of the season?

[Roy]

Makes complete sense. They split strategy to ensure that an RBR car beat Lotus to the win. The way the cookie crumbled it was Vettel that won...and he is the guy needing points to wrap up the WDC. So thinking big picture RBR got the strategy perfect.

That is a given....the discussion is whether the strategy hurt Webbers chances of a victory and I think it did hurt his chances of a victory....the challenge was could be beat Romain on teh same strategy? Based on the lack of pace from Lotus on teh hard tyres he was in for a good shot...

[PRO_32]

James Allen said himself that mark wad brought in when he wad to get vettel into clear air and mark may come into play at the end of the race, doesnt sound like thats in mw best interests. The problem with the race charts in the Pirelli era is it shows lap times as tyres are being nursed not possible lap times. Given marks second stint times;

Lap 13: 1:37.913s

Lap 14: 1:37.978s

Lap 15: 1:37.766s

Lap 16: 1:38.156s

Lap 17: 1:37.754s

Lap 18: 1:37.919s

Lap 19: 1:37.983s

Lap 20: 1:37.907s

Lap 21: 1:37.878s

Lap 22: 1:37.747s

Lap 23: 1:37.430s

Lap 24: 1:37.797s

it looks like he either had more laps in them or he could have leaned on them a bit more knowing he would be in on lap 25

but this is a circular argument about a race now gone and a season that's pretty much over.

rbr had to do what they did though it couldn't have gone better, can you imagine if mark and seb were fighting for the lead for 5 / 10 laps, massive chance of it coming to tears

[hrd-hr30]

It's not a circular argument. Last post you were complaining about his early first stop, now you're complaining it was an early second stop...

Mark and Seb would have been fighting for the lead IF Mark was able to pass Romain as quickly and efficiently as Seb did. Which, again, is not the team's fault.

The only other option for Mark after the neccessary first stop was to try and run the same two-stop strategy as Romain. The undercut wasn't effective in the first stop, so can't see why it would have been the second time. And Mark is not as gentle on his tyres as the Lotus is, so he probably would have started to drop away from the Lotus like he did in the first stint. Even if he could keep up, with the undercut not working at Suzuka, Mark would have had to pass him on the track without a fresher tyre advantage, which would have been no chance!

And that's ignoring the time (and tyre performance) both Red Bulls would have lost as Vettel challenged Webber at some point.

Red Bull did not screw him over. They increased his chances of passing the Lotus, and did the best thing for both their drivers.

Edited October 16, 2013 by hrd-hr30

[PRO_32]

Jesus... Complaining, when..??

Circular as in we're going to go on and on with no consensus.

With the first stop and reading up a bit more I concede he MAY have taken to much out of his tyres sitting on RG gearbox and the low drag setup wasn't helping either in the early part of the race.

No mw and sv could have been fighting for the lead if they were on the same 2 stop strat. Even with marks inferior pace I think they had lotus covered. After the 1st stop he needed to do two 21 lap stints which was possible according to JA whether fast enough overall well never know really. But his low drag setup in the lotus wake meant he had trouble trying to pass RG before the first stop so to change him over to a three stop based on two bad sectors puts a lot of faith in the newer tyres getting the job done with not much to gain by risking the two stop.

Anyway this is all because I was on the sauce and thought a message from seb asking his team to get another teams driver to move outta the way was to move his team mate outta the way.

Btw you keep mentioning conspiracy theories not once have I said that, its just business..

[Roy]

[hrd-hr30]

No mw and sv could have been fighting for the lead if they were on the same 2 stop strat. Even with marks inferior pace I think they had lotus covered.

what??? The undercut wasn't working at Suzuka, so on a 2 stop strategy Mark would have had to pass Romain on the track on tyres of the same age. You saw how much he struggled to do that with both big tyre age and compound advantages. So how did Mark have the Lotus covered?

After the 1st stop he needed to do two 21 lap stints which was possible according to JA whether fast enough overall well never know really.

Well we do know his tyres didn't last as well in the first stint. And we know he hasn't been as good as making his tyres last for the past two seasons as the Lotus is. But that's a moot point. Let's forget all that and assume he could keep up - the problem is he'd have to pass Romain on the track without a tyre advantage to get ahead of him. As you said yourself ...

But his low drag setup in the lotus wake meant he had trouble trying to pass RG before the first stop...

Yes, lots of trouble passing Romain in the first stint. No indication at all that he was capable of passing the Lotus on tyres of the same age before the first stop. So the call is perfectly reasonable to try an alternate strategy to get him past the Lotus. And with hindsight that's totally vindicated - his struggle to pass Romain in the last stint with the massive tyre advantage he had, makes it fairly obvious he wouldn't have been able to pass the Lotus on track running the same strategy with the same age/compound tyres.

Btw you keep mentioning conspiracy theories not once have I said that, its just business..

You do think Red Bull favoured Seb over Mark with the pit strategies, and that the messages about who he's racing made it clear that Red Bull planned Seb to beat Mark though. You just don't want to call it a Red Bull conspiracy, even though it's exactly what you're saying.

Edited October 16, 2013 by hrd-hr30

[PRO_32]

Wow that's what you got out of all that? Why does it have to be a conspiracy it's a business decision based on the best outcome for the team I've said that all along.

Anyway I might d/l the race and watch it again sober cause my lap charts show that mark could have done it.

Prace

[hrd-hr30]

regardless of whether Mark could have run a 2 stop race, he would have to pass Grojean on the track with tyres the same age (actually, at least a lap older) to get in front of the Lotus on the same 2 stop strategy Lotus ran. Not a realistic expectation given what happened last weekend.