The End In Sight For Falcons And Commodores

[R31Nismoid]

It isn't the unions fault and if the government is running the country so badly why is the economy doing so well. Would you prefer it if Australia was more like America where there is a class of working poor and the major auto manufacturers required massive bail outs from the government just to keep them soluble or even worse disappear completely like Pontiac.

OT I will believe the end for Commodores and Falcons has come when I go to the respective websites and they aren't available for sale anymore. Those cars have been through a massive worldwide economic crisis and the Falcon made it through the energy crisis. The article seems to have a fair bit of hearsay in it. Will wait and see.

Not entirely, but a part? Most certainly. They are getting money into their coffers to represent, and are not necessarily doing it in the right way.

At the end of the day they should be at some length petitioning the Gov't, that's meant to be in their side, to make required changes to reduce external stresses and thus not requiring hike after hike in wages.

Running a small business myself I'm seeing it daily - No surprise business in Australia is struggling in many sectors (we are being propped up by a few, and luckily, some very smart people in the RBA rather than Gov't treasury).

BTW - 300 Million was just given out to Holden IIRC, so not American big, but it's still propping them up.

[bozodos]

It's a combination of factors such as changing preferences for transport, the perception that big cars use lots of fuel etc etc.

Gotta remember the VE was designed and engineered BEFORE the GFC as well.

These threads seem to be an annual thing on Commodore forums; the more cynical suggest that it is the car companies way of ensuring more handouts.

Even things such as a lot more people choosing to do novated leasing over buying second hand fleet cars (which incidentally in many fleets have all been changed to diesels)

Unfortunately Commodores and Falcons are seen as taxis and old man cars, the newer models are actually really good bang for buck.

Ford's marketing are it's biggest letdown - the supercharged GT and turbo variants are absolute animals for factory cars, yet you barely hear about them (that and brand image with bogans)

The biggest contributing factor of all IMO is the tastes of the majority of the car buying public have changed, and the big two have been caught a bit unaware.

You can cling onto the narrow minded Liberal voter viewpoint of "blame the unions" if you like, but it really is a number of factors.

[eightsixboy]

I think its bad for our economy and unemployment rates but at the same time it was always going to happen. Cars from other countries are cheaper, better quality (mostly) and more appealing then a commo or falcon, its not the 80's any more, knowone wants a boaty looking car that cost heaps to make, if it wasn't for cops, taxi's and buisiness's buying them up this would prob have happened earlier, alot of the new commo's I see around are all corp owned cars or cops, dont think alot of people buy them because they really like them.

Should be interesting to see what happens with the auto industty in the next 5-10 years.

[djr81]

knowone wants a boaty looking car ....

Isn' t that a 33 in your avatar?

[iseekool]

I think its bad for our economy and unemployment rates but at the same time it was always going to happen. Cars from other countries are cheaper, better quality (mostly) and more appealing then a commo or falcon, its not the 80's any more, knowone wants a boaty looking car that cost heaps to make, if it wasn't for cops, taxi's and buisiness's buying them up this would prob have happened earlier, alot of the new commo's I see around are all corp owned cars or cops, dont think alot of people buy them because they really like them.

Should be interesting to see what happens with the auto industty in the next 5-10 years.

Hmmm. yes and no.

Fleets buy them because they are cheaper overall to run. ie. cheaper insurance and servicing. Even if a commodore or falcon uses more fuel - the overall cost of running them is still lower, but if fuel prices keep rising the way they are fleet buyers will obviously re-consider.

Families love them because they are cheap to buy 2nd hand, offer space and plenty of pulling power.

I've driven the latest base model Commodores and Falcons. They are pretty darn good in terms of handling, performance and kit. However the fit/finish and general quality of the car feels very "cheap".

[bozodos]

Can't say that my VZ feels cheaper than my ol' R32, quite the opposite actually! Mine was looked after by the looks of it though and I've kept it that way.

For the price I could not buy anything Jap made of the same age with the same sort of potential.

The VE especially is very underrated, I challenge any of you to take one for a test drive, with an open mind and tell me they are a POS, especially the V8 variants. Same goes for the F6/5.0 GT. Boaty is the last thing that springs to mind with the sports models, let alone one with a decent suspension setup. R33 owners should not be throwing rocks btw

[sneakey pete]

Everyone seems to be forgetting holden also makes the cruze here (don't they?) Not to say it'd continue either, but it might not be the end of holdens manufacturing in Australia.

[BuuBox]

The local market has also been protected for such a long time by tariffs on imported cars.

The current import tariff is only 5%. GST has more of an impact on new car prices.

BTW - 300 Million was just given out to Holden IIRC, so not American big, but it's still propping them up.

GMH received $235m in return for $1b of investment (ensuring production until 2022).

The demise of the Commodore and Falcon may be inevitable, but given the above and the fact that Toyota just opened an engine plant a month ago (one of two that can make the hybrid engine), tales of the demise of automotive manufacturing all together are a little premature. Ford may be another story, although it's at least 3 years away (their strong engineering base helps).

They streaked ahead in sales whilst "X" series Falcons like 'whales', wallowed.

The X Series Falcons were hugely successful. The XF sold 100,000 a year.

[I gotta R34gtr v-spec]

there was a program on the tv about 12 -18 months ago where ford took a falcon to america and fords top engineers and designers got to drive the falcon and the taurus and they they all thought the falcon ran rings around the taurus.

[R31Nismoid]

The current import tariff is only 5%. GST has more of an impact on new car prices.

We did a quick few numbers the other day - this comes courtesy of a friend who went on a bit of a rant, but it certainly gives a good idea of the state of the overall market (this is more a general thing)... This is based on a car costing 100k to make.

$100k

$2k per car freight ro/ro – will be less for them due to economies of scale, but work with me

$5k @ 5% import duty on car cost

$107k landed. Plus anything they need to do to it locally to make it adr compliant.

Let’s just say that the car sitting there owes them $110k

$110k and let’s say they add $30k margin so the dealer pays $140k

$140k and the dealer adds their margin. So let’s say $170k.

$170k, every $$ over I think $58009 gets taxed at 25% LCT = $27997 LCT

Close enough to $200k

Then add GST and stamp duty.

So there we have Import duty being taxed with LCT and then the combination of the LCT and Import duty being taxed with GST. Then you have Stamp Duty which is a tax on 3 other f**king taxes.

GMH received $235m in return for $1b of investment (ensuring production until 2022).

The demise of the Commodore and Falcon may be inevitable, but given the above and the fact that Toyota just opened an engine plant a month ago (one of two that can make the hybrid engine), tales of the demise of automotive manufacturing all together are a little premature. Ford may be another story, although it's at least 3 years away (their strong engineering base helps).

Yeah and hence it won't be until into 2020 as I said earlier that things will get interesting. This will have an effect on export as well for Holden, unless they plan to prop that with other models which no doubt they will be looking into.

So yeah demise not really premature given this is 8 years from really starting to see a boat rock around on this issue.

[GTR-N1]

The X Series Falcons were hugely successful. The XF sold 100,000 a year.

That number includes a fire sale to councils, police, taxis, public service etc... aka massive fleet discounts.

The resale value on "X" series of the mid 80s was horrid.

During that period, Commodores didn't have to discount.

Petrol queues had GMH rubbing their hands with glee.

[bozodos]

Yeah I'd read that the X series sales boom was mostly due to selling pov pack models to fleets.

Ford's first mistake was to get rid of the V8s, and the second to not market them well (or even really make a desirable variant of) when they reintroduced them.

[Cowboy1600]

Not entirely, but a part? Most certainly. They are getting money into their coffers to represent, and are not necessarily doing it in the right way.

At the end of the day they should be at some length petitioning the Gov't, that's meant to be in their side, to make required changes to reduce external stresses and thus not requiring hike after hike in wages.

Running a small business myself I'm seeing it daily - No surprise business in Australia is struggling in many sectors (we are being propped up by a few, and luckily, some very smart people in the RBA rather than Gov't treasury).

BTW - 300 Million was just given out to Holden IIRC, so not American big, but it's still propping them up.

Loach's picture said it all.

How about you do some research? Ford workers agreed to a six month wage freeze during the GFC and then agreed to a 9% rise in the two years after, meaning a 3% rise each year for three years. That's inflation so they went nowhere.

The average Ford worker is on Around $55k-60k. That's hardly a King's ransom in this day and age. To insist people work for less is insisting the live as the working poor.

Holden have just signed off on a 3%pa wage increase over the next three years. Again, barely covers inflation. Bonuses have risen but these are all reliant upon the companies financial position. The company goes nowhere, people don't get bonuses.

The unions also worked hard to help Ford and Holden during the downturn by pushing employees to take unpaid leave, work essentially "for free" and to agree to wage freezes.

As for government support, there is not a major car manufacturer in the world not being propped up by it's government. Germany, China, Korea, US, England etc, etc all prop up their car manufacturing and most of them to a far greater extent than what Australia does. Do the research, as I have and you'll see what I mean. That they do it necessitates that the AU government has to follow suit or else we have no car manufacturers. No cars being built means half a million unemployed people.

For the time being our economy needs car manufacturing. I think we should slowly pull away from it and entice industries that require less assistance and help them to flourish but this would be a 50 year proposition so as to not crash the economy. Moving half a million people from one industry and spreading them out across the rest of the economy is a massive undertaking.

[bozodos]

everyone on here can also help by buying a locally made Holden or Ford

[Cowboy1600]

everyone on here can also help by buying a locally made Holden or Ford

I'd seriously consider an XR6T or XR8 in a heartbeat if I was in the market for a new car. In fact, assuming I was looking to spend that kind of money, it would be an almost certainty that that's what I'd buy.

Unfortunately for Ford, I'm happy with my Stag

[R31Nismoid]

lol Bozzo - I'm in a Holden, and after hearing first hand how good the VF is going to be from a mate who's had a tinker... I reckon a HSV in 2 years time just before they end.

55-60k for the average worker? That's insane if you are talking the factory workers.

[bozodos]

I wish I was on 55-60k! But then again I don't live in the city. Cowboy1600 is right though.

If and when I buy an import again, it's going to have an LS stuffed into it, these engines give me a hard on!

I wish I'd had enough to spring for a HSV; they are just that bit 'nicer' than a regular commo. ESPECIALLY the LS3 variants. It would also give me a legitmate reason to purchase HSV branded clothing

[luke gtr]

Upon reading this, I feel a little nostalgic.

who among us have never owned a falcodore?

I personally have owned both.

working on cars, I much prefer falcodores over European equivalents.

they just seem to cope with higher kms better.

don't get me wrong, euro cars are very well engineered, but it seems they are primarily designed and built to last the warranty period, and then, who cares?

the falcodore is easier to work on, parts are generally cheaper, and they can be a very nice car.

if I were in the market for a new car, I would love an ss or xr6t/xr8, or especially hsv/fpv.

but, to be fair, take the Chrysler 300c for example.

Mid range, has heated/cooled front seats, heated rear seats, heated/cooled front cup holders, touch screen command centre, leather, very nice ride, for 45-50k on road.

cars like this make me think, "why would I buy a falcodore over this?"

and apart from being Aussie made, nothing really comes to mind.

if they do disappear, it will be a sad day in motoring.

[Mayuri Krab]

I'd seriously consider an XR6T or XR8 in a heartbeat if I was in the market for a new car. In fact, assuming I was looking to spend that kind of money, it would be an almost certainty that that's what I'd buy.

Unfortunately for Ford, I'm happy with my Stag

everyone on here can also help by buying a locally made Holden or Ford

My next car will be a either a FG XR6T, or BF FPV F6 or E series HSV (last gen)...

Wanted a 2nd car that has both power & space for a limited budget & none of the Jap offering fits.

but, to be fair, take the Chrysler 300c for example.

Mid range, has heated/cooled front seats, heated rear seats, heated/cooled front cup holders, touch screen command centre, leather, very nice ride, for 45-50k on road.

cars like this make me think, "why would I buy a falcodore over this?"

and apart from being Aussie made, nothing really comes to mind.

Personal perference, but I prefer the HSV/FPV look over the 300C (old one looks too "boxy", while the new one looks too bland IMO).

& I never really care about electronic gadgets, the less the better IMO, besides power windows & A/C...

[ARTZ]

Don't matter how many commafords we all buy the industry is doomed cause it doent have what it takes to make it on a global scale..

Im not going to say they are bad cars cause they are fine, I mean some people think Saabs are/were great too.. But if the rest of the world doesn't buy in they're doomed...sad but true ..Australia just doesn't have a large enough market to support them and in reality half of their products are just rebadged cars from other makers anyway..

Its just flogging a dead horse really