GCG or HKS 25** Turbo

[Steve]

if it were true why are the N1, Grp A turbos Nissan/Garret turbos, not HKS units or similar to HKS units....  

Why would Nismo use HKS? why would HKS use nismo - the whole sharing technology works both ways, so if nismo use HKS technology, they will badge it nismo and vice versa.

I think you will find the N1 GTR turbos are almost identical to HKS 2530s for GTR - very, very similar (depending on housing combinations of course)

the article talks of an OEM setup on the G35, if it was a HKS developemental car, it would have HSK parts all over it, it would be showcasing HKS products - what would be the point of fitting OEM looking parts if you are trying to sell HKS? the only real conclusion would be doing developement work for someone else. If you can think of a more likely reason, please let me know. But in this case its the same conclusion that Martin came up with.

I am not saying Garrett turbos are no good, I am only saying that HKS turbos are not available, complete, from anywhere but HKS. And they are definately not just re-badged garrett turbos. HKS turbos are unique HKS items.

Failure or no (I am not sure), Keir upgraded the turbos to larger ones in the hunt for quicker times. If trust turbos were not up to the task, why is he running them now? why is it that Keir himself told me he will only run Jap gear, as it is the best. and that there was not point stuffing around with other stuff? His results speak for themselves.

I do want to reiterate, if you have the time to do the reasearch, it is possible to find very good garrett combos, that may be better suited to a specific application. But HKS turbos are unique, and for the average guy who just wants to fit a turbo and get good results, they are hard to beat IMHO.

Many have tried to make their own combo and save a few dollars, but unless you have many years of experience, you will be throwing money away unless you are very lucky. Even GCG get it very, very wrong at times - and they are experts (by aust standards)

[Roy]

I think this is clear, but i will say it to be safe....im not arguing with you, just having a discussion

Why would Nismo use HKS?  why would HKS use nismo - the whole sharing technology works both ways, so if nismo use HKS technology, they will badge it nismo and vice versa.

I think you will find the N1 GTR turbos are almost identical to HKS 2530s for GTR - very, very similar (depending on housing combinations of course)

Are N1 turbos and Grp A turbos Nismo or Nissan, i thought the N1 GTR was badged Nissan, not Nismo.... im only going on gut feel, but talk that HKS carry out R&D on the Garret turbos to suit their application, hence the premium in price suggests that HKS is the engineering force behind it all.

I think it could be more a case that HKS say "this is what they want", in engineering talk provide Garret with a User Requirement Specification, then Garret does the whole design of the turbo, produces a combo that meets HKS requirements, which in turn gets tested on cars, tweaked and eventually badged an HKS item.

Not underselling HKS technical ability, but computational fluid dynamics isnt something you do in house, especially when you are essentially tweaking an existing product to suit an application. They would of course weigh in with their thoughts during the design phases, but HKS sell turbos for the Japanese car market, and are used in forms of Japanese motorsport like Drag racing. Are they used by any JGTC or Jap rally cars?

Japanese manufacturers involved in top level motorsport using turbos like Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan, Mitsubishi rely on IHI and Garret turbos, i think Honda even used Holset for a period in Indycar...none seem to use KKK despite Biltz basing their turbo on its range.

Me personally, im not comfortable crediting HKS with the R&D of the turbo, sure at the end of the day the extra work that goes into them means that a premium may be charged, but i think the premium comes more from the advertising/packaging then the actual R&D process.

Its all conjecture, but thats some of the thinking that equates why i would be surprised HKS are the origin of much in the way of the turbo technology adopted by Nissan

the article talks of an OEM setup on the G35, if it was a HKS developemental car, it would have HSK parts all over it, it would be showcasing HKS products - what would be the point of fitting OEM looking parts if you are trying to sell HKS?  the only real conclusion would be doing developement work for someone else.  If you can think of a more likely reason, please let me know.  But in this case its the same conclusion that Martin came up with.

You say Martin, do you mean the author of the article Nino D'montarn?

Im looking at the picture of the engine bay, all of the followinbg is easily recognisable/visible: HKS badging on the rocker cover, twin HKS air filters, HKS Racing BOVs, HKS fuel regulator, HKS EBC solenoid...the engine bay doesnt look OEM to me. Its a HKS development/prototype for a demo car, not HKS showcar, and would be a simple reason why they didnt want it to have too much exposure...

And talk of OEM looking tubos ...???...many of the HKS turbos i have seen look OEM... GT-SS, GT2530, GT2535, installed on the car without the HKS badge how could you tell the difference? HKS actuator, well remove it then and about the only way left is to look at some casting numbers on housings and you wont be able to see that on a TT V6.

... If trust turbos were not up to the task, why is he running them now?  why is it that Keir himself told me he will only run Jap gear, as it is the best.

Not saying they are not up to the task, look at the times they obviously are. The reason the Jap gear is the best for such a serious GTR is that its one major part of power development that is already a known quantity, there are so many already running around circuits that you know its not your turbocharger selection that is stopping you from running the times you are after, as there are others doing it with the same combo.

Simply saying its the best is perhaps a little misleading, if i wanted to build a drag car, hillclimb car, circuit car etc etc that wasnt based on a Japanese model i wouldnt be necessary using Jap gear because its the best, woudl you be in a hurry to bolt HKS/Trust turbos onto your Porsche, Lotus, GM, Ford etc etc, you would be looking at what IHI, KKK, Garret are doing over in Europe

Sorry if it was a little long winded, i like listening to the thoughts of others on these sorts of issues

[Steve]

Some good points there Roy.

Just to clarify, Nino is Martin Donnon - a pen name (sorry if I am letting the cat out of the bag Martin:() Truth be told, I didnt look too closely at the photo of the engine bay, I tend to pay more attention to articles - good points about under the bonnet. Also quite possible that alot of the things they fit, they did because the stock ones werent up to the task, and they had to fit something to allow further developement - speculation of course.

We are talking about jap cars here, so speculating as to what I would fit to a german or american engine is probably not so relevant. Having said that, I wouldnt overlook Jap performance turbos for any other car. Garrett are jap, and ford chose them for their XR6T.

I think you summed things up nicely when you mentioned the use of Jap turbos,

its one major part of power development that is already a known quantity

exactly. As you would know too well, when putting a package together, the more variables, the more places that need to be looked at when things dont go right (as invariably they do) - why make life harder on yourself? I was so glad when I fitted my HKS turbo, as when all the rest of things were done, and it wasnt doing what I wanted, all I had to do was look at what WASNT japanese made for the job and bingo - makes R&D so much cheaper for people like me with budgets.

Bottom line with HKS (or any Jap performance turbo) SOMEONE does the developement - and someone must pay, the consumer. The beauty of counries with larger populations is generally the cost is less, as demand is higher.

I dont think you are argueing - hopefully you dont think I am. Like you, I like to explore different opinions and look forward to having what I believe challenged:)

[Steve]

Oh, and I wouldnt say HKS are THE best, just one of them:p

[ed]

Garrett are jap, and ford chose them for their XR6T.

They're actually US.

Well the company formed in the US.

http://www.egarrett.com/about_garrett/about_1930.jsp

[Steve]

How many of their turbos are made in US?

[DoughBoy]

The majority of Garrett's are made in Mexico.

Edit: Ok that's a bit of an ambigous statement, they have plants at Kodamo JP where they supply the Japanese market, a plant in California (Torence), and a massive one in Mexico. I'd put money on the fact that the US OEM market is larger than all the other niches combined, and they are made (cheaper) in their Mexico plant. Hence the majority of turbos made by Garrett are from Mexico..

[Merli]

BAH... Forget HKS, NISMO and Garrett...

GO FOR THE TURBOZET!!!

[Sydneykid]

This is an interesting thread guys. Can I make a suggestion on how to fix the HKS versus Garrett design argument. :idea:

Ring up HKS and ask to speak to the Manager of the turbo aerodynamics department. The girl on the switch is very nice and speaks English pretty well. :boobies2:

See if you get the same response as I did. :ufo:

The phone number (from memory) is 0011 81 544 291111

[whatsisname]

To prevent the HKS switch from getting inundated with calls can you give us a quick run down on your conversation SK?

[Ustasa]

I dare say it would go along the lines of…

“Please call the design office in Torrence, California”.

[Roy]

One thing about the XTR turbo range (GCG), dont they also do their own range of housings fitted with the Garret cartridge and wheels... as i was of the understanding that, say the XTR 3040 was different to the Garret 3040 as it uses locally cast (slightly different) housings...though i cant recall where i got that impression from.

So it may be the case of Garret 3040 v HKS 3040 v XTR 3040 (or GT25 based turbo). The XTR turbos certainly do a good on rotors.

Looking at the times the Yanks are getting out of their FWDs and Supras' etc etc, it would be interesting to see someone have a go at a GTR with Turbonetics etc etc turbos rather then the usual HKS/Trust paths.

Whilst the difference in a Drag car running 8s may not be that big a deal, someone chasing a 10sec/11sec GTR may be able to use a turbo similar to what the Yanks use on their Supras (T66 etc?) to get a great result, possibly better then any of the off the shelf Jap kits (i dont know, just havent seen anyone even try....could be with good reason?).

More importantly for those if us with RB20 and RB25s, considering high flows of GT25 based turbos, there could be a surprise package in the Turbonetics, Innovatibe catalogue that gets our cars cooking.... there are plenty of cars in the US running small displacement 4s with forced induction....so plenty of aftermarket turbos catering for them.

Goes off to see f i can find a big "BORN IN THE USA" tubo to bolt to my Trust manifold.

[Steve]

Saw a dyno of the XTR3040, on Ben Ellis's car in the HPI mag - was very not impressed. Lag (EDIT: probably didnt help that he was running a 1.XX turbine AR). Also, I dont beleive garrett acutally make a 3040 - some shops just call them that to cash in on HKS turbos rep. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have never seen a garrett catalogue that states GT3040??

[B-Man]

Steve, I don't think the larger AR on the exh. housing makes that much difference to lag - Look at Doughboys' chart and mine - he is running a .79 and I am running 1.12 - Lag was about the same, if I recall. (Both HKS 3040s)

[Steve]

B-Man, it should make a huge difference - but you would need to be side by side on the same car to know for sure exactly how much in each case - there are just so many variables. Thats why I like the idea of buying a 'known' product - it reduces the number of variables when developing a car.

For example - I was getting 1 bar at around 3000rpm with a 0.61 and it came on like a switch, now its around 3800 with a 0.87 (note*) and easy to control with the throttle. From memory (please correct me if I am wrong), Merli was getting 1 bar under 4000rpm with his GT3040 and a 0.87 housing.

But as I said, sooooo many variables.

Note* When I changed from 0.61 to 0.87 I also upgraded cams and dropped CR to 8.6:1 - at first it didnt make 1 bar until over 5000rpm! It took may different things to get it sorted, even now a Japanese mechanic and Pro D1 driver told me I should be making similar power with less boost and boost alot earlier than I am. He has seen a few of these turbos in action, so I feel confident he knows what he is talking about.

[Sydneykid]

Goes off to see f i can find a big "BORN IN THE USA" tubo to bolt to my Trust  manifold.

Be careful Roy, having been to the States a number of times, I can tell you that the 1/4 times are more of a result of track conditions and set up than they are engine power. I have seen a car in Japan that couldn't get under a 9, do an 8.4 first meeting up in the States. No change in engine power.

Having said that, I have a Turbonetics turbo going on one of our cars very soon. :aroused:

[discopotato03]

This stuff about the GT3040's . Ages ago I went to the HKS USA site to look at turbo specs . Has anyone noticed that the HKS spec GT3040 uses a 50 trim GT40 82 mm compressor wheel ? This series of wheel was available in 50,52,56 trim which varies in not only air flow but in the shaft power required to drive it . HKS through Garrett Japan probably tried these and others to tune its performance to suit a specific requirement ie high performance petrol engines . Turbos of this size and larger eg GT3540R's are found in many Diesel applications . Remember Diesel engines gererally operate over a far narrower rev range than petrol and the exhaust gas temperatures (EGT's) are significantly lower . Much of Garretts bread and butter sales are OEM Diesel huffers .

Ok so Roger Racer decides to open a turbo business selling the GTBB's . He can slap housings on diesel spec cores (CHRA or centre housing rotating assembly) to give (to some) acceptable results with these cores . BUT they will never be as good as a specifically designed unit . Firms like HKS have far greater resources to contract Garrett who specialise in this field .

As I said before it is possible to get close to and sometimes identical combinations to HKS . I have not researched enough into GT3040R's and GT3540R's to see if Garrett sell a 50 Trim GT40 compressor with the GT30 or GT35 turbine .

As for these high flows I can guarantee that putting the GT30 turbine in a housing designed for a low tip height small diameter ceramic turbine is a disaster . The nozzle shape and volute form are all wrong and turbine efficiency is up the creek . If you can't get the turbine / housing combination right nothing you can do with compressor will fix it . With the above mentioned Hi-Flow to a degree you are paying for the fitting convienence with excessive turbine inlet pressure heat and boost lag . RS500 got his 3040 working properly only after fitting a PROPPER GT30 style turbine housing made by Garrett for that turbine .

Lastly HKS turbine housings . They did have some of their own made because there was no Garrett item to do the job , for example no OEM requirement for a GT30 turbine housing with a T25/28 mounting flange . Obviously Nissan were not about to use them as standard on SR20's or RB26's . Just for the record I think Brett sells these (GT30 .73AR T28 Flange) for probably half that mentioned above , but don't quote me .

The crux of all this is no one wants to pay for the HKS tag . I point blank refuse .

Take your time and do some research .

Chow A .

[Guest Robo's]

Thats why there alot of HKS used units floating around quite cheap, like a 2530 for $1500, this is a direct bolt on. If you choose Garrett, you get a brand new item, but are these direct bolt ons, dont you have to get a new dump pipe etc. Basically another pain in the butt you dont need if you dont want it.

[tang0]

so are yo usaying that a 2530 is a direct bolt on, no mods to manifold or dump pipe, oil lines etc etc needed ???

Thats why there alot of HKS used units floating around quite cheap, like a 2530 for $1500, this is a direct bolt on.  If you choose Garrett, you get  a brand new item, but are these direct bolt ons, dont you have to get a new dump pipe etc.  Basically another pain in the butt you dont need if you dont want it.

[Ahh32]

JWT BB-700: aka disco potato by JWT is a 62 trim, .86 a/r Garrett GT28RS turbo.

31LB/Min or 448cfm @ 2PR @ 72% efficiency.

37LB/Min or 535cfm max flow @ 25psi.

30psi max boost limited by compressor wheel speed.

HKS GT2530: uses compressor of T3 63 trim, flows a little more but slightly less efficient than the T3 60 trim )

30LB/Min or 434cfm @ 2PR @ 65% efficiency.

32LB/Min or 463cfm max flow @ 25.7psi.

28psi max boost limited by compressor wheel speed.

HKS GT2540: The POS 2540 uses To4E 46 trim compressor. 60mm housing inlet.

36LB/Min or 520cfm @ 2PR @ 68%.

39LB/Min or 564cfm @ 2PR @ 60%.

42LB/Min or 602cfm max flow @ 60% @ 19psi.

30.8psi max boost limited by compressor wheel speed.

HKS GT2835: uses GT35 71mm 52 trim compressor.

42 LB/Min or 608cfm @ 2.7PR or 24.6psi @ 60%.

32psi max boost limited by compressor wheel speed.

HKS GT3037: uses GT37 76mm 52trim compressor. 70mm housing inlet.

49 LB/Min or 709cfm max flow @ 2.4PR @ 60%.

33psi max boost limited by compressor wheel speed

Garrett GT30R: uses GT37 76mm 56trim compressor. 4 inch compressor inlet, 2.5 inch outlet, 60mm 84trim turbine, T3 inlet flange, 4 inch outlet, .82 and 1.06 A/R.

52 LB/Min or 752cfm max flow @ 2.7PR @ 68% efficiency.

36psi max boost limited by compressor wheel speed.