Gtx Compressors - Did Garrett Set The Bars Right ?

[jet_r31]

you posts always give me a headache..lol

cheers

darren

[Lithium]

Me too - though I get frustrated when I can see potential for an interesting constructive conversation and have the participant too absorbed in telling you what you already know to realise you are able and willing to bounce ideas to create a situation where all participants may end up better off than they were before the conversation. I have no idea why twice now I've taken time out to try and add something useful to this thread, I clearly don't.

Won't happen again

[discopotato03]

Seriously ? You really want to rat up something vaguely like a TB31/TA34 type T3 flanged turbine housing to fit one of those T3/T4 ball bearing hybrids . Lith the reason those things turned up in the first place was to offer a better more reliable BB center section to those already using that type of turbocharger . Ditto for the T04 P trim 60-1 cartridge . Balls for those with with real T04s .

In fact the T04Z cartridge is exactly that with a T04R compressor instead of the 60-1 .

Go straight to the parts bin Lith , or search online for pics of those old TA/TB31 turbines , and compare them to an NS111 or even a GT30 UHP . Not even close to the same aero and you don't have to be an engineer to notice the differences .

Turbines are being looked into ATM but most of the effort seems to going into smaller OE VATN diesel turbos I believe like the GT2256v and GT2260v . I think European diesels like X5s and others use them .

I think the aftermarket will get a few alternatives down the track but they'll need to be bigger than 50mm .

A .

[Lithium]

Seriously ? You really want to rat up something vaguely like a TB31/TA34 type T3 flanged turbine housing to fit one of those T3/T4 ball bearing hybrids . Lith the reason those things turned up in the first place was to offer a better more reliable BB center section to those already using that type of turbocharger . Ditto for the T04 P trim 60-1 cartridge . Balls for those with with real T04s .

In fact the T04Z cartridge is exactly that with a T04R compressor instead of the 60-1 .

Go straight to the parts bin Lith , or search online for pics of those old TA/TB31 turbines , and compare them to an NS111 or even a GT30 UHP . Not even close to the same aero and you don't have to be an engineer to notice the differences .

Turbines are being looked into ATM but most of the effort seems to going into smaller OE VATN diesel turbos I believe like the GT2256v and GT2260v . I think European diesels like X5s and others use them .

I think the aftermarket will get a few alternatives down the track but they'll need to be bigger than 50mm .

A .

You missed the point and the later hint, so I will reply one more time to clearer explain my position here to you as I am past trying to explain something to you which you aren't smart enough, too arrogant, or just plain too aspy about unobtainium Garretts to think or care about. I had been trying to move into a constructive conversation but you are clearly far too absorbed with your own opinion.... so in future don't bother putting your rants to me about stuff I *already know* in future as though you are teaching someone wide (or glazed) eyed, they will be regarded as mindless drivel and you are not going to get a response as it is clear as day it will be a total waste of my time doing so.

The philosophy I was rolling with when I posted has been around for Millennia - there was a guy once called Aristotle... he was really smart and came up with the line "The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts". Even though there have been leaps and bounds in bearing, and aerodynamic technology since his days his line is as relevant as it ever was.

It is ALWAYS possible to make something using older and individually inferior bits which will perform better than something built of few newer superior individual bits if it suits the specific purpose better. Sure it is possible to make something even better using the right combination of new bits, but if you don't have access to said new bits - what is the point... and wouldn't it be better to have the right combination of new and old versus an inferior combination of only new? That was a rhetorical question, by the way.

A conclusion to this thread? Garrett don't give a shit - they are selling turbines, cores and compressors they have had for AGES (yes the GTX compressor design can be traced back to the 80s) and they are making awesome money off people who mildlessly buy Garrett stuff. There is no need for them to get too fancy with it as there is plenty of market for their half assed efforts. Borg Warner have effectively done with the EFR-series what you are ultimately gagging for Garrett to do, Power Enterprise did some similar things with their RX6R turbos years ago, if you want something better suited to your specific needs than you're going to have to spend a shitload of money or get a bit more open minded.

[GTScotT]

It is ALWAYS possible to make something using older and individually inferior bits which will perform better than something built of few newer superior individual bits if it suits the specific purpose better.

To back this up with some real world data (for all future readers) companies like Forced Performance (FP) use an old school T3/T04E Sierra wheel in their current spec Evo Green and Red turbos. They are run in a twin scroll housing and with the tricky areo of their HTA compressor wheels the performance is nothing short of amazing.

The same HTA tricks added to the GT30 UHP turbine is producing the results seen on BRI73Y's car noted in the other threads currently attracting attention.

Lithium has a full and valid theory that the right combo of already available parts can meet and exceed the areas of performance an individual can be looking for. You just have to be willing to experiment and specifically to TRY.

FYI Stao (hypergear) still has a stage 3 Sierra wheel on shelf and can CNC a billet compressor in whatever spec requested. He also has access to KAMAK TD06SL2 STS turbines which are the 9 blade version of the L2 turbine (typical results are from 11 bladers, KAMAK advertise 2/3s weight saving in comparison). He can build whatever it is you ask for roughly the 1k mark, give or take a few hundred depending on spec and housing requests.

[discopotato03]

Lith I understand the point you are trying to make which is why I previously made examples of the BB P/60-1 and T04Z turbos , these days the GT30 and GT35 turbos can do virtually the same job and are lighter more compact and have more efficient wheel/housing combinations .

I too played with those TB31/TA34 turbines which people incorrectly name "Sierra dash 1/2/3" . This is not the turbine that the Sierra Cosworth or RS500 variants used . That turbocharger is by todays standards a POS and thankfully the BB GT turbos went on to replace that kind of thing .

Every thing you do to a GT30 UHP based turbocharger involves a work around for that turbine , in fact everything to do with every turbocharger ever made involves working around its turbine shaft/wheel .

The reason people make hybrids based on these turbos is because the turbine housing and centre section are the most difficult and expensive parts to develop . If they weren't FP etc would be making their own unique turbos and not having to put up with someone elses compromises .

Lith you are right that Honeywell to a degree doesn't care if there products aren't perfect - so long as they sell enough of them - particularly in the small volume aftermarket area . Thing is that they do actually care and the more we spread the word about their turbos shortcomings the less they can afford to ignore it . The WWW ensures that any brilliant new development gets plenty of exposure , lets just say that EFRs coming 7163 blows every other similarly sized dryer out of the water and nothing comes close in the 500 hp area . Within days everyone knows about it and every competing unit looks like shit . Suddenly noone wants a GTX this HTA that , they want the gun thing thats a known success .

Big G is probably more concerned about its face than selling aftermarket turbos , if they lose face they may lose their attitude and actually get the lead out and do something .

Anyway think what you will but at the end of the day the GT30 turbine is heavy crude ancient aero and laggy because of its trim size . If anything it may have worked better had it been 57-58mm OD because it would have been lighter and the trim size less of an issue for most of the engines these end up on .

I'm watching very closely whats going on with the 7163 and its slightly smaller brother because if they are as good as those in the know reckon I may just buy one .

A .

[FineLine]

The garret bible according to disco spud...spread the word.

[Nee-san]

7163 is the new benchmark is it not ?

[discopotato03]

Well we don't really know yet because its not oficially released . I think those working on them want it to be the best 500+ horsepower turbo on the market ,

by best they are hinting size weight response . In truth they are supposed to be a bored out I think 6758 so with a bit more compressor and turbine they should make more power .

The 7163 is supposed to have a second generation turbine and there may be some turbine housing mods as well .

I'm not sure which turbine housings will fit other than the T25 flanged 0.64 AR one , with luck the T3 flanged 0.83 AR IW can too .

Anyway to get back on GTX track I think there is a need for a compressor wheel somewhere in between the 67 and 71mm ones . Really I should say pumping capacity wise because I think a GT30 turbine can easily power a less than 56 lb flow wheel and try to be responsive in a 0.63 AR turbine housing . Its been suggested that the GTX3071R could used a 0.63 housing but as I said I think thats counter productive . I'm waiting for one person to get back overseas on how their GTX3067R performs - I need some first hand results .

A .

[Lithium]

Share the GTX3067R results if or when they become available, will be really interesting to see. What kind of vehicle is it on?

[discopotato03]

I think its a 180 with an SR20 , Full Race T4 manifold and using an external gate . Housing is a Garrett T4 flanged single scroll 0.63 AR one with V band outlet .

A .

[Lithium]

Interesting combo - E85 or pump gas, do you know?

[bri73y]

I had twin 7163s on my RB28.

Pity I don't still have them, could have been handy on my RB25.

[Lithium]

Wow, that is a lot of turbo in twin form!

Have you driven the current RB25 combo? Very interested to know how that combo works in practice

[Joshbigt62r]

Share the GTX3067R results if or when they become available, will be really interesting to see. What kind of vehicle is it on?

+1

[bri73y]

Wow, that is a lot of turbo in twin form!

Have you driven the current RB25 combo? Very interested to know how that combo works in practice

Yep, was given them by BW/FR almost 2yrs ago now. They were supposed to spool somewhere between the 6258 and the 6758.

I think they were numbers 3 & 4, so the earliest ones out there...

In the end they spooled as you'd expect from a pair of 7163s so they came off as quick as they went on. I think they made 21psi at around 5700rpm or something.

Just horrible for a track car, made more power than my 6258s but it was so late it didn't matter.

Haven't driven the RB25 yet, it's yet to go back to the tuner for retune with external map sensor. will happen soon.

[Lithium]

Yep, was given them by BW/FR almost 2yrs ago now. They were supposed to spool somewhere between the 6258 and the 6758.

I think they were numbers 3 & 4, so the earliest ones out there...

In the end they spooled as you'd expect from a pair of 7163s so they came off as quick as they went on. I think they made 21psi at around 5700rpm or something.

Just horrible for a track car, made more power than my 6258s but it was so late it didn't matter.

Haven't driven the RB25 yet, it's yet to go back to the tuner for retune with external map sensor. will happen soon.

Yeah I have been a bit suss of the claims for the EFR7163s, there is a bit of ultra enthusiasm surrounding some of the things FR have been involved with and sometimes results which seem too good to be true have been shared around without the full picture being painted. I still think they'd be good (in single form) on an RB25, but that's not relying on them being some mystical combination so much as they are bang in the right flow area for a lot of people here while using modern compressor/turbine tech and fancy materials to make it all response and light and attractive. A single one on E85 on an RB25 would be ridiculously punchy, though unlikely to have been capable of the power levels you were looking for with the race car. In twin form it sounds more like a drag setup unless you have them going on something with 3.5+litres.

Oh right, yeah forgot that needs to be done too - I was thinking it might have been at some inbetween point where you could still use it... wasn't nagging for more results

[jet_r31]

Thats the problem with the marketing of all these turbos these days, more than half of it is hype and bullshit

cheers

darren

[Lithium]

Share the GTX3067R results if or when they become available, will be really interesting to see. What kind of vehicle is it on?

Found something...

Couple of interesting dyno plots from ATPTurbo.com for turbo upgrades for Ford Focus - a .86 GTX2867R:

And .63 GTX3067R:

.63 GTX3067R makes more power and spools better than the .86 GTX2867R - looks like it could be as promising as I was hoping it would be, definitely making decent power. Would love to have more detail on it.

Source: http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=DYNO-DATA+-+2013+FOCUS+ST+2.0L+TURBO&Category_Code=FET