Electronic Boost Controllers V's Bleed Valves

[adznight]

Hi, after a good half hour searching old threads I haven’t really come up with any decent conclusion. The question here is out of the two which is the better for a R33 or R34 running under 250 rwkw with a stock turbo (of course) with your basic mods eg. Cooler, Exhaust etc.

There are a few consideration here -

1. Performance (This is the number one concern)

2. Functionality

3. Cost

4. Ease of use

Now I’m pretty hazy when it comes to details but every workshop has their own opinion “Don’t use Brand-X’s EBC, boost spikes etc” or “Bleed valves are cheap and wont keep the wastegate closed”. I’m lost.

What sort of effect does a bleed valve have on power delivery and turbo spool up etc if any compared to an EBC? Which will deliver power smoother and quicker? What’s the story with wastegates being kept closed fully until desired boost is reached?

Will be a very interesting thread me thinks!!

[BHDave]

I'd be inclined to get an ebc having used a number of bleed and reg type bost controllers there are quite a few issues that you will encounter.

The first and worst is that bleed valves will generally peak at your set boost but fade as the revs rise, somewhere in the order of 2-3 psi. Second is thermal stability, with a bleed because it is a set orrifice size the boost tends to flutuate with temperature, higher if colder, lower if hotter. Cheap regulator tyes are even worse than bleeds.

I haven't owned a decent ebc yet but have driven and been driven in a number of cars fitted with them and looked at dyno results showing boost and the ebcs are a lot more stable. They hold boost all the way to redline and tend to be more stable with temperature. They also have the added advantage of brining boost on quicker by stopping any pressure signal reaching the wastegate so it doesn't creep as much and let exhaust gas past. If an ebc is spiking it is because it has not been installed and set up properly.

[Birnie]

Well i can't comment on the EBC's but everyone that raves about em are usually the ones that were converted from the bleeders so they should really know.

But for the price of a bleeder, they are damn good value i reckon. My Turbosmart being $80 second hand and holds 10psi great on the dyno. It did go down like BHDave said but only about 1psi and the pressure curve was still very flat and constant.

Ease of use is great! Very easy! And easy to install.

I reckon go the bleeder for now and learn about what's happening with the behaviour of the car then go the EBC when you think you've got it all sussed out.

So, 1) Performance and 2) functionality are sacrificed but i don't think by that much.

but, 3) cost and 4)Ease of Use are right on!

[Busky2k]

I still like my trusty bleeder. (GFB Atomic) For $700 for an EBC, or for a set of HKS Cams, I think I know which one will give me more power.

ALtho If you are planning on runnning more than 1 bar on the stock actuator, then any bleeder will be prone to spiking. Get a hardened up actuator (set at say, 11psi) and with a bleeder you should have very good results. This is because the bleeder doesnt have to bleed as much pressure to reach, say 15psi, so the boost is more stable and less spiky compared to when using the stock actuator of 6psi.

[adznight]

So so far it seem EBC's are the go. Why is it so many workshops recommend Bleed valves then?

[95GTST]

Adam, my guess is that they want us to use bleeders, flog the shit out of our cars and they get to fix it when the turbo blows up Makes sense to me!

I'm finally getting an EBC, sick of the boost spikes... You set it on a cold night to 10psi, and on a hot day you're running stock boost! The other end of it is that if you set it to 10psi on a normal day and give it a poke on a cold night you hit 16+ psi... **** em, ebc for me!

I do agree though that it's good to learn how things work, so if you aint got the cash, you can use a bleeder.

[Sydneykid]

Hi Guys, We use a lot of the Autospeed dual (Norgren) valve style, for around $100 they give both max boost adjustment and a rate of boost climb adjustment. Boost stability is rock solid and rate is linear. Here is the relevant article.....

http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/A_0670/article.html

We also always upgrade the wastegate spring rate, as Busky2K posted. Electronic or manual boost controllers always have problems with boost stability when there is a big difference between the spring rate and the boost target.

Every car I have seen with an EBC has had problems sometime in its life, the more sophisticated they are (eg; learning) the harder it is to trouble shoot problems. You have a problem, you try a solution and the damn EBC learns the new set up and you don't know whether it was the problem or not. So Adzmax, I would do a more detailed search and you will find lots of posts from people trying to research their EBC problems.

Hope that helps

[adznight]

Thanks for the info. It's not so much a problem I'm just really undecided on what controller to use. I mean I had an AVC-r but wasn't to keen on it so never put it in. Now I have cash but don't want to make a mistake Looking at HKS EVC at the moment but still undecided.

[Guest Robo's]

There is nothing wrong with a good bleed valve and for the cost they are a great bang for buck. Save your cash and buy some other performance mods. I set mine at 13psi, it sits there regardless of weather, but yes it does loose boost up high but this is not in relation to the controller, rather to other issues namely the actuator spring.

[adznight]

We also always upgrade the wastegate spring rate, as Busky2K posted. Electronic or manual boost controllers always have problems with boost stability when there is a big difference between the spring rate and the boost target.

Forgive my ignorence but when you talk about the wastegate spring rate are you talking about the actuator or something else? I remember seeing the HPI DVD where they upgraded the actuator to a HKS item after uping the boost. I'm assuming a stiffer Waste Gate spring prevents the waste gate valve from opening too quickly before the turbo can produce boost?

[predator]

I'm a bit of the KISS philosophy .. Keep It Simple & Stupid Lots of them all have these ricey displays and fancy "AI logic" which people tend to get sucked in by, but really they're probably a no better boost controller than some of the cheaper ones with a simpler display, but do what they are supposed to it.

A lot of the more expensive EBC's have all these fancy functions and learning modes, and like SK said, who knows what they're really doing. An EBC setup incorrectly can spike similarly, go infinite boost, or cause other problems.

Bleeder for cheap, EBC for later. None will kill your car if correctly setup.

ProfecB isn't even a bad choice with the KISS stuff at a good price - I've seen some big HP cars with them in Japan. Then again some reckon they can cause problems at higher levels, but you hear stories about every little performance part. Can pick them up for $300-600 from new to 2nd hand. Works fine in my car.. couple of knobs, high/lo selector, and sharpness (to adjust on different setups so boost doesn't drop at higher revs). Thats it. Does the trick. Newer one is a bit ricier with the LCD.

[Jay95R33]

This is what I found from using a bleed and a EBC on the same car.

The bleed can work very well if it's set up right.

Keep the hoses to and from the bleed valve as short as possible. This will help stop it from spiking. On mine, I had a 2 inch hose from the top cross over pipe going into the bleed valve then it went straight to the wastegate. Also do your best to keep the heat from getting to it.

The bleed vavle I had was a Turbo HPBC, it has a bleed valve as well as a pressure valve which can be independatly tuned to stop wastegate creep.

You could tune it so it wouldn't let any air through until it saw 10psi, then bleed air off to bring it up to 12psi. That's how I had it set anyway..

I tried a EBC at one stage. After installing it and tuning it, I felt almost no difference at all ! Maybe a slight bit better at the top end, but I wouldn't say that it was 8 times better (that's how much more the EBC cost over the bleed valve).

I ended up taking the EBC out and putting the bleed back in !

I would say that the best thing you can do if your looking at boost levels of 1 bar and under is buy a bleed with a anti wastegate creep valve in it and/or buy an upgraded wastegate actuator.

Unless of course you go for a full replacement ECU, then you may want to look at getting a boost controller intergrated in with the ECU, like the boost controller kit with the PFC etc...

J

[predator]

yeah, i would agree that the difference between my old bleed-type setup to an EBC wasn't very noticeable in everyday driving at all. If you don't have much money to throw around, there'd be other things i'd probably be doing first.

[adznight]

Yeah I think I'll give a Bleed valve a go and see what it's like. It's only going to be a set level so there is really no need for an EBC. If it's no good then I'll upgrade.

Would still like to know more about the Wastegate Actuator and the spring rate (or are they the same thing:) )

[adznight]

Yeah I think I'll give a Bleed valve a go and see what it's like. It's only going to be a set level so there is really no need for an EBC. If it's no good then I'll upgrade.

Thanks for all help. Will let you know how I go!

[adznight]

It's not so much a money issue it's more a case of is spending $700 on a EBC a worth while option. As people have said above $700 would go well to dyno tuning my Power FC and installing the cooler

[NickR33]

I picked up a Blitz dual solenoid EBC brand new for $500... (these forums are a great place to get a good deal)

It's small, sits tucked out of the way, holds boost perfectly, has peak hold function (good for me cos don't have boost guage), can set how quickly boost comes on, has boost spike warning blah blah... most of the functions I don't use but for the reasons I just listed I would'nt go back.

Oh, bloody hard to work out how to use it but once you have it sussed you have 4 presets that you can switch to just by turning a knob... for example...

OFF - you could have stock boost (EBC set to off)

4 - then minimal boost (stock boost but more 'gain' to bring boost on quicker)

3 - medium boost (1 or 2 psi higher than stock)

2 - high boost (about 10.5 psi on my ebc)

1 - extreme boost! (30 psi on your T88! FULLY SIK!)

[benm]

How much are these upgraded wastegate actuators?

[yogi000]

I picked up a Blitz dual solenoid EBC brand new for $500... (these forums are a great place to get a good deal)

It's small, sits tucked out of the way, holds boost perfectly, has peak hold function (good for me cos don't have boost guage), can set how quickly boost comes on, has boost spike warning blah blah... most of the functions I don't use but for the reasons I just listed I would'nt go back.

Oh, bloody hard to work out how to use it but once you have it sussed you have 4 presets that you can switch to just by turning a knob... for example...

OFF - you could have stock boost (EBC set to off)

4 - then minimal boost (stock boost but more 'gain' to bring boost on quicker)

3 - medium boost (1 or 2 psi higher than stock)

2 - high boost (about 10.5 psi on my ebc)

1 - extreme boost! (30 psi on your T88! FULLY SIK!)

Hey,

Does the gain really work, i havent played with it. What gain setting you running Nickr33 and what turbo???

Cheers

George

[mokompri]

like SK im using the autospeed boost controller... its great, it holds boost perfectly and is quite adjustable, although the suppliers didnt have a well matching spring, which makes tuning of the thing a real pain and time consuming, but hopefully ill be able to get a spring from a third party company for the job...

the problem with the electronic boost controllers is that they run solenoids, which have an on/off state, thats the reason why you have spiking problems etc... with the bleed valves or industrial valves, the air thats bled out occurs in an analogue/linear way, whereas with solenoids they cycle on/off very rapidly as they vent air in an attempt to bleed out the correct amount, with some sort of feedback system it tries to determine with the current boost pressure and its preset boost pressure, how many more cycles should be done to bleed out enough air to match the current and preset boost pressures.. problem with this ive found through peoples dyno charts is that the cycling speeds arent always high enough for accuracy or to hold boost properly, and cause really aweful spiking/dipping, as it keeps bleeding and self correcting, but never sits stable and dances around the preset boost pressure, i'll post a dyno chart later that shows this effect...

ive found though, the best thing to hold boost, is the wastegate spring, it has the best feedback/correction system, far superior to that of a solenoid, and a tad better then an industrial regulator... it holds the preset 7psi beautifully and the needle on the boost gauge doesnt twitch... my new setup will consist of simply a HKS adjustable wastegate actuator and the pressure relief valve from the autospeed norgren setup, basically im replacing the regulators job, with an adjustable actuator. the actuator will determine the max boost setting, and the relief valve will determine the amount of boost creep that i want

edit: here is dyno graph showing the effect of the cycling solenoid on the boost pressure, although its exagerated, i think this setup was having issues..