Forced Performance Hta Turbos

[Tonba]

Statements like that completely kill any credibility you have/had.

And why is that? Mat's results prove that the GT turbos are just a dated design these days. With all these billet style turbos coming from the likes of FP and Precision Turbo, the results just speak for themselves.

I have also played around with Trust turbos - 20G & T67 and also my current turbo, which is a HTA model. And let me tell you, it makes more power, and is more responsive then my old T67 ever was...

I would choose my dinosaur over a GTX variant.

Who did the flow tests on the T3 0.82 single vs T4 TS 1.15?

I personally wouldnt go for either of those turbos. HTA turbos are just fantastic.

Based on results in the USA on Evo's. I understand its a different platform, but you need to understand that the Evo guys have been playing around with billet turbos + twin scroll applications for a LONG time now. Twin scroll simply chokes the top-end unfortunatly.

I'll see if I can find some links with some decent information.

I agree with GTscotT to an extent, as I haven't seen a one run balls out GTX result yet on high boost with cams and a manifold.

Owenliberts result was exceptional for a GT imo, I spent a lit of time designing the dump and merge on that setup though, and I am sure it had more left in it, a GTX version would be interesting to say the least.

I agree. The GTX turbos are good.

[wolverine]

I personally wouldnt go for either of those turbos. HTA turbos are just fantastic.

Based on results in the USA on Evo's. I understand its a different platform, but you need to understand that the Evo guys have been playing around with billet turbos + twin scroll applications for a LONG time now. Twin scroll simply chokes the top-end unfortunatly.

I'll see if I can find some links with some decent information.

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I need to declare that my interest is more based on streetable applications so absolute balls to the wall output isn't what I am looking for. I have driven GTX variants and find them relatively docile down low so this hardly makes a GT version a dinosaur. The transient performance feels stronger with the older compressor to me. Given the extra cost of the GTX version I would keep the extra coin in my pocket.

Twin scrolling isn't used to make bigger top end power so I think that it is self evident that the divider will increase drag compared to an identical area open scroll. I am still interested in data from either back to back testing with no other changes or decent flow tests. It will be good to look at some link if you have time.

[Tonba]

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-engine-turbo-drivetrain/305217-hta-35r-new-power-gains-quest-150-mph-trap-speeds-2.html

Post #24 has a direct comparison of GT3582R vs HTA3582R and this was all the way back in 2007!

There is PLENTLY more results I just need to un-earth them when I get the chance.

[Lithium]

need to declare that my interest is more based on streetable applications so absolute balls to the wall output isn't what I am looking for. I have driven GTX variants and find them relatively docile down low so this hardly makes a GT version a dinosaur. The transient performance feels stronger with the older compressor to me. Given the extra cost of the GTX version I would keep the extra coin in my pocket.

Indeed - the GT transient response being better than the GTX seems to be a recurring theme, so treating the GT as a control - the case seems to be:

For the size it seems to be:

GTX - Flow comparable to the next size up compressor, responds mid way to the next size compressor

HTA - Flow almost comparable to the next size up in compressor, responds mid way to the next size down compressor

In the case of Mat's HTA - if he turned his boost down to 16psi, I'd say the curve would look much like a GT3071R equivalent - but then at 20psi it makes power like a full GT3076R... and THEN you keep turning the boost up and realise that it will make power close to what you'd expect from an 82mm GT-series compressor!

This is why they make so much sense to me, you can go with the HTA3076 whose compressor behaviour looks like it perfectly matches the point the GT30 hotside limits - there is no wasted turbine or compressor flow, so heaps of power potential BUT not fully utilising it means the worst case scenario is you make GT3071R power with GT3071R spool, or if you want- GT3076R power with GT3071R spool. If you were never going to get silly, then you could go with a GT3073R and make GT3076R power with better response than a GT3071R - who knows what that'd feel like!

[BLITZ-26]

Mabe I should get hta to make me a comp wheel for my blitz turbo.... surley thry can make one to fit it

[SimonR32]

And why is that? Mat's results prove that the GT turbos are just a dated design these days. With all these billet style turbos coming from the likes of FP and Precision Turbo, the results just speak for themselves.

I have also played around with Trust turbos - 20G & T67 and also my current turbo, which is a HTA model. And let me tell you, it makes more power, and is more responsive then my old T67 ever was...

One result that shows a slightly better outcome and you call the GT's a dinosaur?

You're on drugs, it's better yes... A little and a little is great but it's not the be all and end all. Many other things would make a lot more difference than what we are looking at here.

[GTScotT]

One result that shows a slightly better outcome and you call the GT's a dinosaur?

You're on drugs, it's better yes... A little and a little is great but it's not the be all and end all. Many other things would make a lot more difference than what we are looking at here.

Take the recent SR22 kando result posted by Status.

The dude put the effort into having a motor that could spin up and whacked on a basic TD06H 10cm. Heaps of turbine flow in a relatively compact housing (think highflow). The outcome was 400kw and over 4000RPM of usable power band.

$700 dinosaur turbo. The win was in the methodology, I wish I had done the same with my own build in hindsight.

[Lithium]

SimonR32, on 30 May 2013 - 17:01, said:

One result that shows a slightly better outcome and you call the GT's a dinosaur?

You're on drugs, it's better yes... A little and a little is great but it's not the be all and end all. Many other things would make a lot more difference than what we are looking at here.

In regards to the dinosaurs - they have done well, and still do... a lot of FP turbos make good use of proven Dinotech - plenty of it does great!

There are lots more than just that result which prove that the HTAs work very well, just this is the first on a Skyline with a back to back with an equivalent and well known Garrett which brings things closer to home.

It seems there is no winning. Here is a turbo which makes excellent power with excellent response, and there are people wahhing that it isn't doing much despite it doing it ALL better than one of the best choices for an RB25. Either the extra power doesn't count because most people wouldn't push it that hard, or the result isn't that stand out because it is making similar to a relatively cheap (but way laggier) turbo.

200kw by 4000rpm for some time was seen as the standard target for an awesome match on an RB25 - ignoring the fact that the target for this turbo is more transient response than building boost at specific rpm, how many other RB25s are making 280rwkw near that mark? What mods would be required to get an RB25 do that and pull 390rwkw on the top end with a budget turbo?

And on that note, you guys also realise we are talking about just the turbo - and not saying that going to an HTA replaces all other mods, like anything it can be added to the list to develop a result?

[GTScotT]

Don't get me wrong.

I am not wahhing in this case. I am simply setting a few things straight, GT are not obsolete and Greens/Reds/Blacks should not be used as a guideline expectation for budding RB builders.

Le simple.

[copycutter]

200kw by 4000rpm for some time was seen as the standard target for an awesome match on an RB25 - ignoring the fact that the target for this turbo is more transient response than building boost at specific rpm, how many other RB25s are making 280rwkw near that mark? What mods would be required to get an RB25 do that and pull 390rwkw on the top end with a budget turbo?

This is the point I was going to make. Where this HTA result really stands out for me is down here. Well, that and his reports of the overall daily nature of the transient response, which I think is often overlooked when dyno charts come out.

Mat's result looks more like a GTRS down in that territory, and yet goes on all the way to peak above any similar 3076 result I've seen.

I read his dyno chart as about 240kw at 4000, but either way it's staggering when compared with other similar sized turbos. At 4000rpm his setup is hammering, when mine is only just waking up. Admittedly Mat's setup is pricey, but the results speak for themselves.

[Lithium]

Ah yeah I can agree with the FP Red/Black etc - though they aren't far off, the compressors are the same and there is debate on what works better all around... David Buschur felt the GT3076R HTA performed better than an FP Red would in his case, though he was using a TiAL housing on his and a very serious motor etc. The main purpose behind the FP Red/Black etc is they are direct bolt on units for EVOs, if FP thought the wheel/compressor combo could be better for the "universal" versions there is a good chance they would have made them with them.

Maybe they still will...

[Lithium]

I read his dyno chart as about 240kw at 4000, but either way it's staggering when compared with other similar ized turbos. At 4000rpm his setup is hammering, when mine is only just waking up. Admittedly Mat's setup is pricey, but the results speak for themselves.

It's a bit hard to read - so to be certain what I ended up doing is working out that every vertical line represented 185rpm... which makes the line that 280rwkw intersects is the 4070rpm mark, which is why I used a loose number. 4000rpm, or 200kw are a bit hard to determine the value from the opposite axis from exactly.

[discopotato03]

Interesting thread fellas and the results look positive . It sounds like these HTA GT30BB hybrids are doing what Garrett and HKS did with GT37 and GT40 compressors back in 1989-90 . Power and response . We really should look at what they were trying to beat ie the bush bearing centres with heavier dated tech not so high speed wheels - both sides . Basically T series compressor and turbine technology .

I don't see GT35/37/40 series compressors as dinosaurs but like with anything time and development moves forward improving performance . GT wheels have their place and they do seem to have their own specific characteristics .

Its probably race technology and production economics thats pushed the whole machined compressor wave , CNC machines can no doubt spit these wheels out quickly and reasonably cheaply and make it so quick and easy to experiment with different styles .

As has been said the hub area can be smaller and the material denser so making strong light wheels gets a lot easier .

Two things I wanted to say .

1) These HTA variants are bulkier because they seem to be using the 0.70 AR T04S compressor housing where Garrett use T04E ones on their 71 and 76MM GTX turbos , and the 76mm GT ones . Curious to know if what FP thinks about their 71mm wheel in a T04E housing .

2) How far do we think we can get with a std cast manifold and GT30 IW turbine housings ? I'm guessing the 71HTA and maybe the 73HTA with a 0.82 IW GT30 housing would probably run Nissans exhaust manifold to the limit .

Roy I know what you are saying about E70/85 masking high exhaust manifold pressures - it just doesn't want to detonate up to a point .

Evos , yep love them or hate them they were designed to make a lot of torque in a limited rev range so they had to get the boost up early . By our standards a TD05HR turbo is not big but it isn't exactly small next to an RB25s OE Hitachi . That TD05 turbine looks huge compared to the ceramic CPU fan Nissan used and its part of the reason Evo 4G63T 2L four bangers cranked out 206 Kw with number plates . The twin scroll turbine housing was the way to make good torque from low revs without being restructive within the limits of a 16G6 turbocharger . The Evo X uses an even larger turbine housing but it also has a more modern 2L four with VCT on both cams . What would you give for an RB25 with VCT both sides and a twin scroll turbo ?

Um nearly forgot to say that Mark at GT Pumps in Sydney has a technology tie up with FP and may be able to make up HTA hybrids if you ak him nicely .

A .

[GTScotT]

Are you sure its a tech buy in?

I know he has no access to the FP turbines, so question if he really has right to the tech or they just don't care that he can cad and copy the compressor when he's only mating them to OE MHI spec cores.

I know he also has no access to Garrett parts, he's essentially an Aussie kando. Right down to the supplier for his components. Sure enough he owns a CNC and makes his own compressors though.

[discopotato03]

Well that was the impression he gave me when I last saw him which was just before he moved .

A .

[Lithium]

Two things I wanted to say .

1) These HTA variants are bulkier because they seem to be using the 0.70 AR T04S compressor housing where Garrett use T04E ones on their 71 and 76MM GTX turbos , and the 76mm GT ones . Curious to know if what FP thinks about their 71mm wheel in a T04E housing .

2) How far do we think we can get with a std cast manifold and GT30 IW turbine housings ? I'm guessing the 71HTA and maybe the 73HTA with a 0.82 IW GT30 housing would probably run Nissans exhaust manifold to the limit .

Roy I know what you are saying about E70/85 masking high exhaust manifold pressures - it just doesn't want to detonate up to a point .

Yeah they are definitely bulkier - though the T04E housings aren't exactly tiny, all R34GeeTeeTee's needed was intercooler piping upgraded in size which isn't a packaging issue so much as it just was a change from one compressor outlet size to another. These turbos are the same size as GT3582Rs etc, which have been mounted in all kinds of ways - included on stock manifolds on RB25s so I doubt it would be much more than a pain in the butt to install.

If I had to be honest, my confidence in the 71HTA being good for an RB25 is not enormous - not to say it wouldn't be, but that compressor is usually used as an entry-ish level bolt on for EVOs and while the response is insane etc, they all seem to be pushing a reasonable amount of boost to make reasonable power. An HTA3071 on an RB20 with a .63a/r housing however would be ridiculous, I'd say they'd be EXCELLENT for each other.

Going by R34GeeTeeTee's response etc, I'd say there is no point going smaller than the HTA3073 - that is a fairly decent step down in size from the HTA3076 and you'll definitely feel the difference, but it still flows well. It should make for quite lively acceleration in all cases - the HTA3071 would probably fit very well as a GT2835 or GT-RS upgrade with minimal (if any) compromise in spool/response but how much more power will available to be made in the 15-20psi range which should on paper be the top range for that turbo size... I don't know. If I *were* to try the HTA3071, I'd be tempted to use the .63 housing - too... which is a bit unlike me, but given how fast it will come on and how high speed suited it will be, not to mention the fact that I actually suspect that while it is rated to 51lb/min it will flow a reasonable amount less than a GT3076R in the 15-20psi range it'd be used for.

I reckon a setup like that would be very VERY responsive and not have the nasty EGT and backpressure issues the GTRS etc have. If the compressor starts maxing out it will be easier to manage, especially on pump gas. I am not really convinced that using E85 to mask excessive exhaust pressure means that you are making it better, so much as allowing power to be made while still thrashing everything ultra hard - I'd not expect awesome turbo etc life doing that.

[discopotato03]

I'm not suggesting that people are masking temperature with high eth fuels its just you can fend off detonation that could cause damage otherwise when searching for limits .

Also just wondering if its worth going past the 71mm HTA hybrid as I said on an IW std manifold engine , what do we think the reliable limit in this form on a stock block RB25DET burning E70 ?

A .

[Lithium]

.63 IW HTA3071 on a stock block E70 RB25? Hard call. Maybe 330rwkw, with ridiculous response? Very little to work with on that one, but that's the first area that comes to mind for me. I'd expect it to be giving a very solid push in the back in the low 3000rpm range, too.

[GTScotT]

Knowing that FP themselves market the 71HTA wheel as an all out highflow option, why not consider following suit?

FP sell the item as a TD05H 71mm, which in the right housings would be even more ballistic on an RB. You could step it up to the TD06 based turbine, also.

But this all sounds a little familiar with Hypergear having already gone and done the 20.5G tests (which worked well if you care to look). Or is this all taboo in here and we need to stick with original Garrett/FP variants alone?

[Lithium]

Not at all taboo - the HTA wheels are the main point of this, and I have thought the same thing myself. A TD06 SL2 HTA71 would be very very interesting thing on an RB25 (imagine it with a BB core!!!), And yes, I also follow the Kando results - I just didn't venture into that kind of range as there is no freely available option at this stage, I think we've even mentioned to Stao (or that it would be good if he could) do a hybrid of sorts using an HTA wheel.

Now FP are making their own BB cores, wonder if they will look at doing "universal" non-Garrett based HTA BB turbos - the new Super94 sounds like it may be a first of that kind of thing, and the results are nothing short of phenomenal... if the reports are accurate it almost does to the PT6766 and old HTA3794 what R34GeeTeeTee's HTA3076 did to the old GT3076R:

^ That is on a T3 flanged HTA Super94