Rb25 Neo Build With Water/meth & No Intercooler

[wizaa_101]

So heres the Idea to get me to the 500rwhp mark

I've currently got an R34 GTt with its internally standard RB25 Neo.

It has head work, cams, gears, greddy plenum, e85 1000cc IDs, Link G4 PnP, e-boost2, SS coilpacks, FMIC, oil cooler & walbro 255.
Twin Plate Exedy already done too.
It still has the standard turbo & as such i'm not seeing power past the 190rwkw mark. (I'm okay with this for now).

My next major mod is to consider the turbo setup.

I'm thinking GTX3582r.

But here's the catch. I'm wondering if anyone has thought of using the stock manifold, (port matched & polished to get the most out of it) & gone straight out of the turbo, across the head & into the throttle body using a water/meth injection kit as the cooling aid instead of an intercooler.

My reasoning being, is that I've successfully installed the water meth kit on my Nissan Patrol (DIESEL) & the difference it made to operation, intake & EG temperatures was unreal!
The intake temperature alone dropped 40 degrees C

Also there is the benefits that the methanol brings to the table as well, slower, cooler & more complete burn allowing more timing & less chance of detonation.
Also using a turbo as big as a GTX3582r with only a foot or so of intercooler piping would be like running a 3076 with a FMIC in terms of how it would spool up. So it would give me the benefits of running a larger frame turbo (high volume, low pressure, lower outlet temps) whilst utilising the response otherwise seen in the smaller frame. It also would yield a bigger power band as it would come onto boost much sooner & yet not run out of puff up top like the smaller frame turbo.

Also using the stock manifold would aid in low end torque response.

The removal of all that intercooler piping is also a weight redistibution that would be moved from the front & installed in the rear of the car in the form of a water tank, pump & assorted control gear.

SO!!!! Who wants to help me with the "Why" & "Why Not"s of this setup.

Also let me remove the most controversial Why Not. Water Meth injection is legal as long as the two parts don't exceed 50/50 concentrations as after this point the mixture has to high a volatility & meth being what it is then becomes a problem.

For the noobs out there, Water injection doesn't create a hydro-lock as the water volume to fuel ratio is very low, atomised & turns to steam before it has the ability to do damage.

This is a Genuine Idea people so lets not shot it out of the water yet

Thanks

Nick

Plans down the track for a Tomei 2.8l stroker kit too

Edited June 9, 2013 by wizaa_101

[Super Drager]

Been done plenty of times before and i'm going down this route myself.

[Adriano]

unfortunately loosing the fmic wont make any real difference to the rpm boost threashold, just to lag, i wouldnt expect a gtx35r to come close to a gt3076r, when they are worse than a gt35r. Imo spend the money on a hta 3076 with a good setup manifold/gate etc, probably the most responsive 500rwhp you will get, need e85 or wmi though

[StevenCJR31]

ive thought about this myself and i reckon go for it!

[Joshbigt62r]

unfortunately loosing the fmic wont make any real difference to the rpm boost threashold, just to lag, i wouldnt expect a gtx35r to come close to a gt3076r, when they are worse than a gt35r. Imo spend the money on a hta 3076 with a good setup manifold/gate etc, probably the most responsive 500rwhp you will get, need e85 or wmi though

+1

[GTSBoy]

Yuh, I concur with the peeps above who say that you should use an intercooler. Intercooling is free temperature loss. You want that temperature loss, PLUS what you can get from WMI. WMI on its own won't get you as cold as having both together.

Next problem is whether you can attach a 3582 onto the stock exhaust manifold. Tight squeeze? Wrong flange? Something something.

[KiwiRS4T]

A 3076 will fit on the stock manifold with a 10mm spacer and get you 300kw (or more with E85). You don't want much more power with stock internals.

[jet_r31]

ok

why not- massive ignition setup to light the mixture will cost a arm and leg

why not-the massive amount of mixture you have to inject is borderline ridicilous on 98 octane, the math has been done before

E85 or meth, go for it...but not worth it..and you still be injecting f**kloads

whynot- the cooler pipe shorter will make f**kall difference..

cheers

darren

[discopotato03]

I'd just go with E70/85 and if you really want to play evaporative cooling move the injectors further from the head flange . I really don't think intercoolers are a biggie especially when you can get ones like the Blitz return flow that can't be seen in the bay - at all .

[Dan_J]

it will hit full boost earlier, at the very least 500rpms sooner if not 750-1000rpms.

no clue of how badly it will heat soak.......

[XRATED]

it will hit full boost earlier, at the very least 500rpms sooner if not 750-1000rpms.

no clue of how badly it will heat soak.......

Kids these days....

I'm here to tell you, you will not gain 1000rpm of response from running a direct pipe. Especially not with a 3582r on an rb25.

To OP... nice idea, been thought of and tested before. A well set up evap/chemical cooling solution can work better than an air to air exchanger. A well set up system is not an off the shelf wmi, not even close. It would be very expensive as compared to a traditional intercooler. Other than the potential for slightly better cooling, there is no real gain. No real gain in response, serious strain on ignition system and not as reliable.

If you are hell bent on a shorter intake track, just run a barrel style water to air cooler set up.

J.

[kitto]

Thread is pointless.

Now that E85 has been available for some time now im not sure why people still bother with meth injection.

500HP out of an internally stock NEO is achievable with a factory turbo manifold, externally waste gated turbo of your choice, factory inlet manifold and a supporting fuel system.

[jet_r31]

it will hit full boost earlier, at the very least 500rpms sooner if not 750-1000rpms.

no clue of how badly it will heat soak.......

and make your cock 2 inches longer no doubt at the same time, lol

[jet_r31]

Thread is pointless.

Now that E85 has been available for some time now im not sure why people still bother with meth injection.

500HP out of an internally stock NEO is achievable with a factory turbo manifold, externally waste gated turbo of your choice, factory inlet manifold and a supporting fuel system.

because E85 is not viable for a everday car..nor is it viable for a car you TRULY use, go on holidays in, drive interstate, drive to work and drive around on weekends....its for the weekenders and race cars. and its still a pain in the ass to go get it unless you have drums at your house.

thats why some people would bother...

cheers

darren

[scotty nm35]

Other than the drive interstate part, I have had no issues on ethanol in my daily, for over 4 years now. I just wish they would stick a few pumps up the main interstate routes to save me taking the missus car on long trips. (Melbourne does have the majority of the pumps though.)

Mixing up water meth every few days would be a pain in the arse imo, plus having to store fairly large quantities of flammables around the house. I contemplated switching back to petrol with WMI but the benefits of e85 don't just stop at it's detonation protection... Do they...

[kitto]

because E85 is not viable for a everday car..nor is it viable for a car you TRULY use, go on holidays in, drive interstate, drive to work and drive around on weekends....its for the weekenders and race cars. and its still a pain in the ass to go get it unless you have drums at your house.

thats why some people would bother...

cheers

darren

Ethanol content sensor. That is all.

[jet_r31]

you just don't get it.., let me know when you "flex fuel sensor" your family turbo car, and how it goes for you...

cheers

darren

Edited June 10, 2013 by jet_r31

[wizaa_101]

Whoa! Good start!

First off, this isn't a useless thread. It's a learning curve for next person who thinks to do this & they'll be able to deduce from this weather or not it's right for them.

I guess jet_r31 has summarised the why nots the best
However we're not talking family turbo car. We're talking a car that sees the road, more infrequently than the daily & that sees the track more frequently than the road.

The Link ECU will be getting a Flex fuel sensor installed

The goal is to reduce lag & maintain the top end

Jet_r31: I didn't take into consideration the ignition system & you're right the SS coilpacks wouldn't hold up. Maybe something like the LS coilpacks would. I've also heard some good things about some late model corolla coilpacks but unconfirmed.

Also the other big why not that I didn't do util today is the amount of water/meth I'd be mixing. Turns out that a 20L drum isn't going to out last a tank of fuel & I'm not sure its worth it carrying more than 20L of extra liquid.

I have no intentions of staying with the standard exhaust manifold either.

I think its back to the drawing board then

3076 does look like the way to go.

What other turbos are available from other companies that are of a similar frame to the 3076?

[kitto]

you just don't get it.., let me know when you "flex fuel sensor" your family turbo car, and how it goes for you...

cheers

darren

My tuner has done just that to his daily.

Its perfect with no issue. So as far as im concerned I do get it.

[kitto]

To the OP.

If you want to reduce lag there are other ways to do it.

- A turbo suitable to your aplication and power goals

- Anti lag if your keen

- A well set up ignition system using a crank trigger setup so you can have dead accurate ignition timing all the time enabling you to be more aggressive in areas of the map without having to worry about ignition scatter from the OEM CAS. E85 really helps here too as its less prone to knock.

- Dont delete your FMIC, but instead take the piping along the shortest route.

Theres other ways as well.

Jet_r31. So you'd rather mix up a water/meth mix for your family turbo car every time you drive it rather than simply have an ethanol content sensor allowing you to just drive it and forget...