R33 Gtst Toe Alignment Issues

[sstennizz]

yesterday I installed my new tension arms, lower brace, steering rod ends and coilovers ( all japspeed). Fitting was easy, but I'm running into problems aligning everything. I've adjusted the tension arms so the wheel is exactly centered in the arch (a few degrees positive), and trying to adjust toeing now. Strange thing is that the wheels are still facing inwards a bit, but I can't shorten the steering rods any further.. if I push the wheels back with the tension rods, it gets better, but that makes the caster go negative..is there a different way to affect the front toe?

[GTSBoy]

Have to guess the tie rod ends are the wrong ones, or not installed properly.

[sstennizz]

Can't see whats wrong there, it's fitted correctly and the rods should be the correct ones according to japspeed.

What I'm going to try tonight is raise the car a cm and push the wheels back a bit.
The car used to stand like this:

Looks like it definately had negative caster, but it's hard to know for sure. Does anybody know the dimensions it's supposed to have horizontally from the center of the wheel to the front and to the rear of the arch?

Edited June 17, 2013 by sstennizz

[Dan_J]

i'll assume that when using said rod ends you'll need shorter rack ends to suit, that should fix the toe in issues

[GTSBoy]

How long is that tie rod end compared to the one that came off?

[sstennizz]

10mm longer, so I compensated that on the tread of the rod, .. but then still had to add the rest of the tread.. So it's not really the end that's the problem.
And about the rack ends, what I don't understand is why they'd sell the rod ends if you end up needing different rack ends as well?

[sstennizz]

My guess is that it has to do with the caster. I'm starting to think the wheel isn't supposed to be dead center in the arch. But slightly to the rear. Though haven't got anything to compare it with. Images I find on google of side views show the wheel damn near dead center, but might be heavily modified..

[sstennizz]

Can anybody measure the dimensions you have horizontally from the center of the wheel to the front and to the rear of the arch? On a R33?

[battery]

Contact Japspeed about the tie rod ends, perhaps they are made to be used with their tie rods?

[sstennizz]

I did, all I got in response is to go to an alignment shop.. Planning to, just want to get my mind to rest on wether the wheel is supposed to be centered in the arch or slightly to the rear..

[GTSBoy]

Have you actually measured caster, or are you just guessing that fore-aft movement results in a certain amount of +/- caster? For one thing, your car may have been owned and driven by a 6-toed moron who liked to crash it into kerbs and the front crossmember might have been moved on it's chassis rail bolts. That can cause the wheels to be fore or aft of where they're supposed to be.

[sstennizz]

True. I'm going to check the angle today, see where it is exactly. My guess is that is just has to move back a bit. We did some measuring and a degree in caster is barely visible without measuring. We'll see. Planning to have her aligned next wednesday. First have to mount the hicas lockout bar. Better get front and rear done at the same time, instead of having to go twice..

[sstennizz]

Things I know for sure:
My front caster is damn near 0 degrees

Pushing it back makes it go negative and improves the toe angle, pulling it forward towards the required 6.4 degrees makes it toe in even more.

My wheels are clearly visibly toeing in


There is some cambering


There is no more adjusting left on the steering rod ends




What can the alignment shop do that I'm not seeing right now? I thought negative caster was bad for driveability, but that seems to be the only way to get it done. And now at least I know for sure that the previous owner(s) where driving with a buttload of negative caster, since the wheel was pulled back at least a couple of cm's on the old short springs and shocks.

[KiwiRS4T]

You want all of 6deg castor for high speed stability

[GTSBoy]

Rod/rod end combo is wrong in some way or something (like subframe) is badly out of position in the front of that car. these are the only things I can think of.

[sstennizz]

Could be they fitted the wrong tie rods somewhere in the past and decided to counter act that by giving it negative caster? As I understand some other series use the same thread just different lengths?
I don't think the subframe is out of position, since the bolts are exactly where they are supposed to be. Anyone know the standard length of a R33 track rod? I know the new ends are 15mm longer, but on the old setup (with the negative caster) that still gave me plenty thread to realign. On the right caster though i can never get it aligned. What I'm going to try today is lift the car up about a cm and pull the wheels a little more towards that 6 degrees. The caster right now isn't enough yet to pull the wheels straight again. When cornering now I really need to turn them straight myself, otherwise I'll end up on the side of the road.. I was thinking about adding some thread to the stock ones, even though there's not much left on the rod to put thread on and shortening them a couple of cm's.
Japspeed is now trying to get me to buy their track rods as well.. Which I didn't intent to.. Why sell rod ends if you end up needing the rods too??

[sstennizz]

My guess it that somebody fitted the wrong length tie rods and to compensate for length difference, they pushed back the caster.
What I did::
- Old tie rod / end measured how much thread was left.
- Removed old end
- Measured old and new ends (new one 15mm longer) which gave me approx 15mm free space on the thread.
- Replaced Struts / tension rods (about 10mm lower than before).
- Caster to just positive (should actually be around 6 degrees, but thats for the alignment shop, as long as it's not negative)
- Fitted the new ends and adjusted so that it compensated the length difference

- Toe-in... A lot..
- Tried adjusting the tie rods, but dead end.. And still toe-in..
If i now press the caster backwards, it actually decreases the toe-in and actually starts pulling the rear of the wheel inwards, but also makes the caster go negative.
Subframe is not moved or bent (deviation is identical on both sides and subframe is still neatly on the mounting bolts), and I can't find any bent rods or arms (would be a huge coincidence that both sides are equally crooked).
On soc they just state that I should have bought the tie rods as well, because it won't work with standard tie rods (why the hell to they sell just the ends without mentioning it then?).
I now have a few options. Buy the tie rods from japspeed and hope I can get them shorter, shorten the ones I have now and lengthen the thread on them, or shorten the new ends which then makes them a lot less reliable.

Does anyone happen to have a loose R33 tie rod, to measure the length from the rack to the end?

[Dan_J]

S14/R33 ones are 290mm

the issue here is the rods on the rack not the caster, people even run 10degress of caster ( say 6 more then "center" ...)

rack ends might be from another car or lock spacer, so too long and of course i'd assume that the rod ends are adjusted all the way, make sure the rubber boot isn't hiding some more thread on it

i think cefiro rack ends are m14 and are the same length as the s13 with is shorter so if all else fails give that a go