Hsv More Fun....?

[bozodos]

haha ok then, have a look on any LS forum about the issues you mention and see how much you find. fark all. The world has moved on since RB motors. Yep I have a 150k motor that looks like new internally, and ZERO valve float issues with a 6500rpm redline, and I know of and have driven 250k motors that are just as good. I can only speak on my experiences, and what I've read elsewhere, but please prove your statements about these "common" issues.

Tight tolerances and over engineered, also bucking the trend of more cams = better.

Maybe you just don't look after your car, I don't know, but the LS engines are the most reliable I've seen, especially at higher power levels. LS's are well known for living 500k+ with bugger all mechanical issues.

[XGTRX]

http://sportscarforums.com/f13/ls-engine-series-issues-17010.html

one of many if you look hard enough.

I am not hear to bullshit or to prove that i am right for the sake of it. Doing this is a waste of time.

Gen 3s had horendous issues and the design is pretty much the same as the current engines.

In fact the LS2s had a worse designed head which amplified the problems.

When all these issues happened, me and 3 other owners got engine rebuilds and every head machining place said the same thing and engine builders with decades of experience on chev engines knew about the inherent problems with stock unmodified gen and ls engines.

I am not talking about crate motors here, i am talking about high volume production engines, and yes there is a huge difference.

And i stand by everything i say especially to the poster saying about his mates hitting the limitter regularly on a stock motor.

And please dont get personal about me looking after my car. People that know me are amazed how well i look after my cars and I am talking about engine builders and performance shops that always tell me how much of a pleasure it is to work on my cars and wish all their customers over maintained their cars like i do.

By the way i found those pictures for you

Before

After

And yes this is as a result of inherent problems that cause valve issues, compression issues, and the spings at redline ARE susceptible to float.

And my advice to everyone with chev engines....install a vented catchcan as soon as you get it to protect your heads.

My clubby now has 205000km and 100000km since the rebuild ,compression is perfect, it gets driven not babied. All my cars get an oil and filter change every 3-5000km and all fluids changed once a year. Always done this and never had an issues with any of my cars for 20+ years, except the clubby of course.

Hope this clarifies where i am coming from and helps people in general.

[bozodos]

Citing a random forum (and for all I know yourself) hardly gives your claims more credence.

In that thread, old mate fails to acknowledge the HUGE volumes of LS cars sold in the states, also I am yet to see any threads complaining about either the 241, 243 or L92 headed engines on LS1Tech, LS1GTO, G8Board or LS1.com.au in regards to any of these claims.

It's no secret that there were a lot of issues with the VT2-VX LS1s (the original 853 headed LS1) - nearly all of them had engines replaced under warranty, or have had the valley plate etc replaced with a later model one.

The LS2 heads (243) are actually held up as the superior factory head on the 6.0s by many due to the fear of 'valve shrouding' with the L92s and big cams / milled heads. You do however touch on one thing, the fact that you've noted issues on motors with standard valve springs (and if tuned a potentially higher than stock limiter).

The ONLY oil pressure issues I have seen or read about is early L76 engines with the VZ sump and the high displacement AFM oil pump, and even then only under certain circumstances such as loading the motor right up in low gear up a hill.

Again, the only valve float issues I've seen are with stuffed standard springs + higher limiter, incorrect springs for cam / valve (as the LS3 runs hollow intake rather than a solid like the L76) or on motors with inherent issues. Naturally if someone intends on keeping their engine on the limiter for extended periods, they should probably be checking their spring pressures regularly. I will make sure to ask my builder / tuner about this next time I see him though.

Given that you made some fairly ridiculous claims about every LS engine, the onus is on you to prove your claims, otherwise they are complete rubbish. Therefore I can only speculate on what you did to yours which leads me to think there was something inherently wrong with your motor, it was thrashed endlessly, or there was an issue with the maintenance on it.

Tinfoil hat types try to claim that as Australia gets the Mexican built engines rather than the Canadian or US built ones (LS7 is only US built), we get the lesser quality motors, which I doubt. None of the LS specialized mechanics or tuners that I've dealt with has ever mentioned this "issue" apart from recommending I fit a catch can after I got the cam installed, or an oil cooler if I were to track it.

[XGTRX]

Thanks for supporting all my claims on the weaknesses of the the LS engines in the post above.

As I have repeated over and over again the best way to protect it is with a vented catch can system.For less than $100 you can prevent many issues as I have already outlined.

As for the head design change on the LS2s you will need to inform yourself of the advantages of the retangular port design with the flat top LS2 pistons.

At no time did I mention oil control issues with stock motors.

If you have reservation about my claims thats ok but if you place a vented catch can setup on your vehicle and observe it I guarentee you will not remove it.

[skiids]

The holden enthusiasts seem to have hijacked the R35 forum.

[XGTRX]

The holden enthusiasts seem to have hijacked the R35 forum.

yeah i was thinking how things get way off topic. sorry

I was a hsv fan until I drove a GTR R32 by chance. got back in my car and it felt like a dinosaur.

Dont get me wrong they are great cars for what they are, a v8 taxi with stiffer suspension and bigger brakes

but dont even try to include them in the same sentence as a 32/33/34 gtr.

And to even mention them in an R35 sentence, you deserve a public flogging.

[bozodos]

well this is a thread about driving a HSV regularly vs an R35.

I know all about the advantages / disadvantages of 243 vs L92 heads on the 4.00" bore engines, I did ask my engine builder again tonight about needing a catch can, and he said it's not necessary unless there is oil on the TB blades (which last time I checked there was not).

You've clearly switched your allegiance back, but attempted to make baseless claims (especially about having to pull heads on stock motors) about an entire series of engines based on your own bad experience, and been called out on it.

As for the the matter at hand, it really depends on whether you're able to put up with the compromises of having a pure sports car vs a family sedan with sporting pretensions. When it came down to boring things like maintenance costs and suitability for our roads, the Holdens (and more so HSVs) are the clear winner.

I'd assume that if you own an R35, then you can comfortably afford to own multiple cars, but as a compromise car, nothing else comes close to VE/VF HSVs apart from the C63 AMGs.

Edited June 29, 2013 by bozodos

[Wardski]

well this is a thread about driving a HSV regularly vs an R35.

As for the the matter at hand, it really depends on whether you're able to put up with the compromises of having a pure sports car vs a family sedan with sporting pretensions. When it came down to boring things like maintenance costs and suitability for our roads, the Holdens (and more so HSVs) are the clear winner.

Say what? What effing compromises?????????????????????/

I fit 2 kids in the back of the GTR very very comfortably, and space in the boot for all the rest of the sh1t that comes with them.. Makes the GTR a Family Supercar IMO, and to hell with commies without the fuel caps and kiwi ferns plastered all over the backs of them.. If you've ever owned one (its clear you know nothing but holdens), you'd know all about this, including the servicing and maintenance costs that end up cheaper than a base model Audi or BMW over a standard term of ownership...

I'd take the GTR over any sort of commie every day of the week and 10 times on Sundays...

Edited June 30, 2013 by Wardski

[bozodos]

Can't speak for owning a GT-R, but I had a daily driven GTS-4 for 4 years, and it was expensive and painful to own as a daily. I've never looked back since switching 2 years ago. Maybe if any of the Jap manufacturers still made cars that were either unaffordable or boring as batshit, I'd still be in one.

When I say compromises, how many GT-R owners would be comfortable with using it for the shopping or long trips, leaving it parked anywhere for a decent amount of time, having any old mechanic perform work on it (even emergency repairs etc etc), the lack of rear doors, being able to get generic parts just about anywhere etc. Would you let your partner drive it? Face it, they're a specialized car, and do what they are meant to do, extremely well within those parameters.

Not to mention the attention that they draw (unless that's your thing).

I am curious though, how on earth does an R35 manage to be cheaper than an entry level Euro to maintain (unless their servicing costs are similarly insane).

Edited June 30, 2013 by bozodos

[2FA54U]

When I say compromises, how many GT-R owners would be comfortable with using it for the shopping or long trips, leaving it parked anywhere for a decent amount of time, having any old mechanic perform work on it (even emergency repairs etc etc), the lack of rear doors, being able to get generic parts just about anywhere etc. Would you let your partner drive it? Face it, they're a specialized car, and do what they are meant to do, extremely well within those parameters.

Not to mention the attention that they draw (unless that's your thing).

.

I drive mine comfortably on long trips and simple short trips just to do the shopping and park it anywhere without worry to be honest mine doesn't even sit in a shed it sits out the front in my drive way... I'm not in a relationship but if I was and trusted them enough sure I'd let them drive it... I have a 2011 model and has just under 30,000kms on it I drive my car to enjoy not let it sit in the shed and try hold resale value by keeping km's down as I don't plan to sell it and i like to make my money's worth out of my services etc

[ARTZ]

R35 is meant to be a cheap supercar not an expensive daily...

It has more class than your average Commodore driver can deal with...

Stay Classy planet earth

[bozodos]

If you were classy you'd pass on the R35 for an AMG

[Redline_GTR]

I think this topic took a little detour ay.

Realistically with any car I'm sure most people have heard many a horror story from someone and hence brand those cars as such.

I personally have heard about holden/hsv and on the other side even the m3's and c63's ... but I still reckon those cars are awesome!

[ARTZ]

An AMG isn't cheap supercar though Boz...Its just a another V8 taxi

[XGTRX]

I think this topic took a little detour ay.

Realistically with any car I'm sure most people have heard many a horror story from someone and hence brand those cars as such.

I personally have heard about holden/hsv and on the other side even the m3's and c63's ... but I still reckon those cars are awesome!

No horror stories just known issues. My comments were only in response to someone's previous post on driving LS based engine's enthusiasticly. To increase awareness of common problems. The ones I have mentioned are known, do exist and do happen. They ARE flaws even though most enthusiasts ignore the elephant in the room because they are blinkered due to their alliance to the brand.

As for the falcommodore cars as a whole they as crap drivers. Sure if you drive a Camry and go for a drive in one they feel like gods but if you test them, as real driver enthusiasts do they have a crap chassis the flexes and gets totally out of balance but get them in a straight line they are drag machines if you can get grip. Gets boring very quickly. If you want a car with these characteristics then that's fine but don't even dare put it in the same sentence as a gtr.

But a lot or falcommodore owners will and I don't know why. They are what they are and that is v8 taxies nothing more.

[Wardski]

Can't speak for owning a GT-R, but I had a daily driven GTS-4 for 4 years, and it was expensive and painful to own as a daily. I've never looked back since switching 2 years ago. Maybe if any of the Jap manufacturers still made cars that were either unaffordable or boring as batshit, I'd still be in one.

When I say compromises, how many GT-R owners would be comfortable with using it for the shopping or long trips, leaving it parked anywhere for a decent amount of time, having any old mechanic perform work on it (even emergency repairs etc etc), the lack of rear doors, being able to get generic parts just about anywhere etc. Would you let your partner drive it? Face it, they're a specialized car, and do what they are meant to do, extremely well within those parameters.

Not to mention the attention that they draw (unless that's your thing).

I am curious though, how on earth does an R35 manage to be cheaper than an entry level Euro to maintain (unless their servicing costs are similarly insane).

Shopping and long trips, no issues here. I regularly hit the old Woolworths shopping centres in Brisbane, albeit I do park it away from ford and commodore owners, and anything else that looks dodgy. I also venture into Brisbane city most weekends and park in a range of carparks there for hours on end without issues. Of course mine isn't a daily, I manage still manage to rack up the kms after work and on weekends.

The GTR is surprisingly easy to work on. There are a good selection of mechanics around Brisbane - although I choose to take mine to a dealer and its a PITA to get there, but at least I know I don't have to (post warranty).

The lack of rear doors isnt an issue for me and the kids. Of course full sized 1.8m+ tall adults don't fit particularily well (head room - lack of) but I don't have that issue, and if I did have to kart around 4 adults, I'd do it in the Wife's SUV.

Yes, my wife has driven the GTR, and she drives it often (more than me some weeks!). She's more of a rev head than I am, which also helped getting the necessary approvals to get one in the first place

Yes, sure, GTR's do draw attention, but not as much as a Lexus LFA, Ferrari, or Lambo. I was at the Downshift meet in Brisbane a few weeks back, and parked next to a black fully sik Holden R8 bro and the Commie got more looks than mine as did the Audi R8, Porsche and LFA nearby.

Servicing is relatively cheap - certainly not INSANE as you say (pays to do the research!) Most services are in the vicinity of ~$500, and only the major ones (eg, full transmission + diff oils replacements - evey 30,000kms) being >$1.5k. When I was looking at buying the GTR a number of euros (not all of them entry level, but generally enthuisast type cars) came into the equation - things like Audi TT RS, Golf R, Scirocco R, BMW 1 and 3 series, etc. Basic servicing on all of these was a massive rip, almost every service around the $1k mark ($800+), and major services pushing the $2k barrier. Where the GTR blows in cost is brakes and tyres, but most of the euros I was looking at had RFT tyres as well, and overall not that much cheaper than the GTR (~$100 a corner cheaper). Brakes is another thing, $6k for OEM GTR pads and rotors but there are a range of aftermarket replacements that push that down to the $2-3k barrier (and in any case unless you're tracking it every weekend, the OEM's last 50-60,000kms)

People think insurance is an issue with the GTR as well. I have mine comprehensively insured with Suncorp for an agreed value ($140k) and costs me only $880/yr. Of course this depends on your area and age (I'm 38 with rating 1 for life)....

Realisticaly if you can't afford to buy a GTR, then you probably can't afford the servicing.. The Commies are much cheaper, and I think Holden still have 1% loans so not a bad bit of kit for the $$. I sat in the VF SS on the weekend, and while it feels nice, I still wouldn't touch it - and whats more my 3yr old boy looked at me with a raised eyebrow and shook his head....

Edited July 1, 2013 by Wardski

[bozodos]

fair points Wardski - but bear in mind you should be comparing the R35 to a Senator or GTS, not an SS which is worth what a third of the purchase price of a GT-R?

I don't own one, but I can see why some owners don't want to use theirs as a daily driven car, which it certainly sounds like OP is finding. V8 Commodores are boring in standard form, and yes even when modified they are still 'just a Commodore', but pretensions aside, I've found that with the right setup, my current car is just as fast on public roads (faster actually) than my old R32. On the track I'm sure the difference would be glaring, but OP is talking about street driving.

Insurance, parts and servicing are easier to maintain (even for a HSV as they share a lot of the same underpinnings) $500 for a minor service is still $500, but then again, you've got the money if you own an R35 in the first place.

XGTRX: your own engine problems are not "known issues" - the LS engines are not perfect, but they are pretty damn good for a mass production motor.

Edited July 1, 2013 by bozodos

[Wardski]

I think the only negative for me with the GTR is the relatively hard ride. My wife who is 7 months preggers with another tribal member isn't enjoying it as much as she used to

Edited July 1, 2013 by Wardski

[2FA54U]

People think insurance is an issue with the GTR as well. I have mine comprehensively insured with Suncorp for an agreed value ($140k) and costs me only $880/yr. Of course this depends on your area and age (I'm 38 with rating 1 for life)....

Mines insured for $135k and its $1200 a year full comprehensive with Just Cars and only in my name and I'm 23 I was expecting around $5k and no one ever believes me when i tell them how cheap my insurance is

[vspecIInur]

Quite amazing to own one at that age not to mention the cheap insurance you've got. Wish I could have one. Perhaps in the near future