High Rpm Performance - Rb26

[Joshbigt62r]

A to4e would have to be the worst possible choice of turbo in 2013. If your revving to 9.500 rpm I'd possible reccomend a n1 block. Or if using 05U block grout fill the block half way. As nytsky said usable power at 9.500rpm is 800+hp territory. I realise you want a high revving rb26 but unless your turbo ect. Is up to the task there really is no point. Better to shift gear make more power than to rev out and nose over hard lose power. Any way up to you man. Alot of the time people advise people on SAU on trailed and proven routes by people who have been there and done that.

Cheers Josh

[nisskid]

i understand, but i'd put in a wrecker special RB20 before spending a bunch of cash on an engine to just hit 7500rpm, an RB20 will do 8000rpm all day every day with over 200,000k's on the block, so i'd be pretty disappointed if a RB26 can't make another 1000rpm safety with all the prep work done to it,

[Joshbigt62r]

8-8.5rpm would be a nice reliable track set up. Engine. Seems you know what you want so I really dont understand why your asking questions???

Cheers josh.

[Lithium]

Hey guys, i appreciate you get a lot of clueless guys in here with tall dreams and stupid ways to go about things

A lot of the time they don't realise they are part of that group...

i'd put in a wrecker special RB20 before spending a bunch of cash on an engine to just hit 7500rpm, an RB20 will do 8000rpm all day every day with over 200,000k's on the block, so i'd be pretty disappointed if a RB26 can't make another 1000rpm

With all due respect people who are able to and inclined to provide useful input are going to struggle to reconcile with supporting the direction you are talking about in good conscience. You have decided what you want, and seem best to go to a workshop who will be much happier about taking money than asking questions and throw money at them.

Let us know how it goes!

[nisskid]

8-8.5rpm would be a nice reliable track set up. Engine. Seems you know what you want so I really dont understand why your asking questions???

Cheers josh.

i agree, i ran 7000rpm setup for years and it was fine too, i'm not saying there is anything wrong with less RPM, personally i don't see any point in spending the cash to end up with an engine many others have done in the past, there are a few additional twists to this engine which make it special, but not overly relevant here in this thread. the point being this engine is designed to be different, one of the challenges i'm facing at the moment is supporting the higher RPM in the head (cam/turbo/manifold etc), we have a bunch of provisions already in place, but obviously i'm always looking for more insight.

i have asked for help with achieving an efficient engine running around 9000rpm, i'm not asking for anyone's personal opinion on whether trying to achieve 9000rpm safely is the correct decision.

[nisskid]

A lot of the time they don't realise they are part of that group...

With all due respect people who are able to and inclined to provide useful input are going to struggle to reconcile with supporting the direction you are talking about in good conscience. You have decided what you want, and seem best to go to a workshop who will be much happier about taking money than asking questions and throw money at them.

Let us know how it goes!

Lithium, we've been around here around the same time, i've dealt with more technical bullshit than most guys on here, albeit mostly with chassis/suspension/steering setup. I'll be the first to admit i don't have all the answers with engine building, hence why i am here asking for advice, but i've also been on here long enough to know that for every newbie with no idea, there's a guy that's been around for a long time who thinks there is only one way to go about it all, and that any other way is stupid.

My goals are not to set a record 1/4 mile, or to have a dyno sheet, they are to create an enjoyable engine to use, i am asking for advice on how to achieve these goals, not about whether my goals are stupid or not. I have owned an RB26 with a T78 which ran 8500rpm reliably with stock bottom end, maybe not ideal, i didn't build it personally, however clearly it is far from an impossible task to have a reliable 9000rpm runner. The bottom end is mostly being taken care of, we are confident in it's ability to take those revs, however cam choice, turbo choice, manifolds etc is where i'm trying to broaden my understanding.

[nisskid]

A to4e would have to be the worst possible choice of turbo in 2013.

the funny part is, one of them is still sitting on a half cut, on an sr which is as far as i know is stock bottom end. can only imagine how much fun that would be to drive, 500rpm powerband.

[Roy]

Some valve springs and a small bump in cam duration to around 260 and get lift up there at 10.25mm whilst its apart.

If you want life in the 9,000rpm range I think that would suffice considering basic rebuilt RB26s with a set of pistons are good to 8,500rpm, With your bottom end, the trick will be underdriving the water pump and power steering and making sure the oil temp and flow is well controlled.

If you wanted to spin to 10,000rpm and make big power than I think it gets a lot more expensive. Lighter valves and lifters, springs etc etc all to try make life easier at those revs and cylinder pressures. But for years people put 2530s on RB26s and spun them to 8,500-9,000rpm with no issue.

But there is a decent step in speeds and loads from 9,000rpm to 9,500rpm.

So a 10cm housing with a 50mm gate on a TD06H-25G would on good fuel be a good 350-380rwkws setup. If you do a search for BU5TER, Brett was one of the early day Trust lovers and his RB25 sang to well into the 8,500rpm range on a std bottom end and make 340rwkws odd for its low 11sec passes. I think you are on the right track with the same turbo as he used in teh TD06H-25G

[Simon-S14]

i dont see whats so unachievable about a 26 doing 9K rpm when from factory they do 8K. with the right parts and care put into the assembly then there should be zero issues.

[nisskid]

Some valve springs and a small bump in cam duration to around 260 and get lift up there at 10.25mm whilst its apart.

If you want life in the 9,000rpm range I think that would suffice considering basic rebuilt RB26s with a set of pistons are good to 8,500rpm, With your bottom end, the trick will be underdriving the water pump and power steering and making sure the oil temp and flow is well controlled.

If you wanted to spin to 10,000rpm and make big power than I think it gets a lot more expensive. Lighter valves and lifters, springs etc etc all to try make life easier at those revs and cylinder pressures. But for years people put 2530s on RB26s and spun them to 8,500-9,000rpm with no issue.

But there is a decent step in speeds and loads from 9,000rpm to 9,500rpm.

So a 10cm housing with a 50mm gate on a TD06H-25G would on good fuel be a good 350-380rwkws setup. If you do a search for BU5TER, Brett was one of the early day Trust lovers and his RB25 sang to well into the 8,500rpm range on a std bottom end and make 340rwkws odd for its low 11sec passes. I think you are on the right track with the same turbo as he used in teh TD06H-25G

cheers mate, yeh you're right, it is a big step from 9000-9500, to be honest 8.5-9000 is the goal, but reliably in a drift application where it will be bouncing off that, hence why there is a lot of provisions being taken on the bottom end which realistically probably rate it to over 9000. I guess my biggest issue with turbo setup is i have had good success with Kando TD06 20G so far, i ran 30psi through my last one for over a year under constant track thrashing, and it feels like brand new. I'm a little worried to move away from Kando's as i am seeing the premium brands blowing at similar rates, not to say they are worse quality, but at $700ea i can afford to blown 1 or 2 over a few years, at $2000+ it's a different issue, and to be honest with what i've seen from mine and other Kando's, i have complete faith in them lasting well over a year, even under harsh conditions. Ideally i'd like to stay within the Kando range, if it's a matter of a few hundred RPM of full boost here and there, i'd rather still go the kando and use the $$ i save on track time.

I honestly didn't believe the TD06 25G would completely die by 8500ish, as i've seen it pulling pretty strong on other engines, but it's not an area i'm real knowledgeable with. I'd be fine with it flattening out from 8.2-9000 RPM as with it being a drift car, the mid-high range is generally where you need it to sing, the final 1000rpm is usually just feathering, you need the wheel speed, but you don't need a whole lot of torque there, in fact ideally it doesn't have heaps of torque to ramp up the revs hard at that point.

[XRATED]

... I think I get what your trying to achieve.

Yeah, just loose as much rotating mass as possible.... electric water and PS pump, under drive pulley set, lightweight rods, knife edged crank, lowish lift cams with more duration, loose bearing and ring gaps etc. Small diameter multi-plate clutch, shorter gearing.

It's never going to be as revvy as a 20, but you could get close.

Long runner exh mani (trust style exh mani),

[abr33]

9k isn't that high revving really. My tuner used to tune a 26 that had an 11,000 limiter, however that was on a t62r i think, and made lots of power... and coming on full song by 6500 gives you a 4500 rpm band...

[Lithium]

9k isn't that high revving really. My tuner used to tune a 26 that had an 11,000 limiter, however that was on a t62r i think, and made lots of power... and coming on full song by 6500 gives you a 4500 rpm band...

And how much time would it spend on that 11,000rpm limiter in a year? This guy has mentioned it being used in a drift car....

[abr33]

And how much time would it spend on that 11,000rpm limiter in a year? This guy has mentioned it being used in a drift car....

Probably not that often I guess

[black bnr32]

Just phone Rob at Rips. he's spinning his rb30s to 10k.

when I searched, I really felt the Ferrea stuff was a step above the rest with regards to off-the-shelf head parts.

Also consider the journal bearing precision turbos for good value and performance in big boost applications.

here's some good links to check:

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/27874-porting-boy-do-they-need-11.html

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/turp_0809_nissan_rb26dett_castrol_syntec_top_shop_challenge/photo_03.html

http://www.theoldone.com/components/cylinderheads/

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/34580-rb26-ported-head-pics/

http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/0704_turp_nissan_skyline_gtr_ztune/photo_17.html

I run the Tomei 280/10.8 cams and spin to 9k. I have about .170" piston to valve clearance on the intake side with +1 valves, 8.5:1 wiseco pistons that are stock shaped, and about 4 degrees retard on the intake cam. I think that's where you'll be limited: p-v clearance on the intake side.

Edited July 11, 2013 by black bnr32

[nisskid]

... I think I get what your trying to achieve.

Yeah, just loose as much rotating mass as possible.... electric water and PS pump, under drive pulley set, lightweight rods, knife edged crank, lowish lift cams with more duration, loose bearing and ring gaps etc. Small diameter multi-plate clutch, shorter gearing.

It's never going to be as revvy as a 20, but you could get close.

Long runner exh mani (trust style exh mani),

yeh cheers mate, so you reckon electric pump? instead of say N1 water pump, and under drive on the powersteering? my guess is powersteering is going to be a bit of an issue due to the steering setup i run, the loads it puts on the hydraulic system are already above normal, so i'm imagining it will take a bit to get that right, maybe an electric version would be a good way to control that.

[nisskid]

Just phone Rob at Rips. he's spinning his rb30s to 10k.

when I searched, I really felt the Ferrea stuff was a step above the rest with regards to off-the-shelf head parts.

Also consider the journal bearing precision turbos for good value and performance in big boost applications.

here's some good links to check:

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/27874-porting-boy-do-they-need-11.html

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/turp_0809_nissan_rb26dett_castrol_syntec_top_shop_challenge/photo_03.html

http://www.theoldone.com/components/cylinderheads/

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/34580-rb26-ported-head-pics/

http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/0704_turp_nissan_skyline_gtr_ztune/photo_17.html

I run the Tomei 280/10.8 cams and spin to 9k. I have about .170" piston to valve clearance on the intake side with +1 valves, 8.5:1 wiseco pistons that are stock shaped, and about 4 degrees retard on the intake cam. I think that's where you'll be limited: p-v clearance on the intake side.

cheers mate, a lot of good info. yeh my guess is the comp will be some where around 9.5:1, not keen to go full NA spec on that, even though a few tuners are confident with E85 and slightly less boost that it will be fine.

have been looking into the camtech range, i'm sure they are able to provide a bit of info as well on top

http://www.camtechcams.com.au/niss_6cyl_rb26.html

[nisskid]

And how much time would it spend on that 11,000rpm limiter in a year? This guy has mentioned it being used in a drift car....

and i guess there are different loads, it's not ultimate rpm, but it's sustained, so it's not really an area heaps of people on here have been, but i'm sure a lot have good theories.

[Lithium]

Or you could get ridiculous and get the RB26 crank and put it into an RB30 block and get some custom 132.8mm rods made up to generate a stock stroke RB26 with a 1.8:1 rod/stroke ratio to take the edge off some of the loads and maybe reduce piston acceleration at TDC a bit - little things that can potentially help make a revvy engine reliable and efficient. As it stands stock stroke RB30s have a better rod/stroke ratio for higher rpm etc than an RB26, but higher average piston speeds due to the stroke length - getting a more agro r/s ratio using the RB26 crank in an RB30 but keeping the same avg piston speed could potentially put valuable movements towards making an effective revvy RB.

[XRATED]

yeh cheers mate, so you reckon electric pump? instead of say N1 water pump, and under drive on the powersteering? my guess is powersteering is going to be a bit of an issue due to the steering setup i run, the loads it puts on the hydraulic system are already above normal, so i'm imagining it will take a bit to get that right, maybe an electric version would be a good way to control that.

If you'd like a light revvy feeling (like a 20 is) engine, just loose all the weight off the engine... Have a good hard look at an electric water pump! especially if you're going to run it in a drift car.

Power steering... again, it's a pretty big strain on the engine. As long as you have a good size battery, an electrically driven ps pump can be more (much more) powerful than an under driven mech pump. Especially with a few tricks. Again- bonus in a drift car!

Hell- if it's a track only car, mount the alternator to the drive shaft (like a proper race car).

... as you said, have a good hard think outside the box.

\Cheers

Justin