Project: Anything Is Possible

[No Crust Racing]

Good luck

[Birds]

lol Dan, sleeping dragons...

[L33SH]

edit.

Edited November 16, 2013 by L33SH

[rev210]

  On 16/11/2013 at 7:23 AM, L33SH said:

I just said my ribs hurt when I was doing deads on Wednesday.

My trainer said to leave deads until Saturday to rest it as I wanted to try again the next day, he said no leave to Sat and if it hurts he said stop. I did one rep same thing.

Has to be something with my form, don't know what though.

It's not the deads that gave you the issue (although it's going to now be a problem). It's scapular / thorasic spine issue. Causes you to feel like you can't breathe and the transfer of pain occurs around the shoulder to the rib cage. Thorasic spine branches out to nerves around the upper torso, so the spasm and referred pain go that way.

The deadlifting you are doing probably has you bracing in a scapular retraction before the lift, the take up of the weight will cause spasm in the muscles effected near the spine.

my advice is to stop doing the 'pressing' movements and get it seen to. The offender will be overhead press or bench most likely. If you are or have been bro-pressing behind the head I will point the finger at that.

please don't do anything further Leesh until you have seen a specialist. You don't want a herniated disc.

Bag of frozen peas between the shoulder blades for 30 min when you are sitting comfortably, as often as you can and before bed. Then thorasic flexion and extension stretches, gentle. You can use a foam roller for the upper back extension stretch but, I'd leave that for now and just use a rolled up towel.

Edited November 16, 2013 by rev210

[L33SH]

I've been doing shoulder press behind the head and I've been doing bench but I've changed my technique to a powerlifting technique.

What type of specialist do I see?

[L33SH]

Now I'm scared, my shoulder injury was thoracic spine

I don't know what I should be doing anymore. I just want to bench, squat and deadlift

[rev210]

  On 16/11/2013 at 11:33 AM, L33SH said:

Now I'm scared, my shoulder injury was thoracic spine

I don't know what I should be doing anymore. I just want to bench, squat and deadlift

Hey it's going to be alright , just the learning process. That spine issue is just flaring up. It will be muscular , same as before.

You are gradually getting to know what techniques are the right ones. Whoever taught you the shoulder press probably didn't know any better, ditto the bench , ditto the dead lift and so on. In each case you have researched and improved.Over head press wise, thats ok you can get the right way sorted easy and sometimes there are variations of movements that take into account we are built differently. In the mean time just rest yourself and fix yourself up.

Physio will do. They just need to release the muscles with a massage etc. You can ice the area to help the inflammation (bag of frozen peas).

If it's not too tender a gentle foam roller work on the upper back would help a little. It's a gentle version of what the physio will do more specifically. You will likely hear some 'cracks' as the vertibrae are pushed around from the muscle spasms. But, it will help relax the muscles.

Edited November 16, 2013 by rev210

[L33SH]

Birds is the one who taught me everything, are you saying he taught me wrong technique?

Okay I book physio next week.

[Birds]

  On 16/11/2013 at 12:34 PM, rev210 said:

You are gradually getting to know what techniques are the right ones. Whoever taught you the shoulder press probably didn't know any better, ditto the bench , ditto the dead lift and so on. In each case you have researched and improved.

I taught Leesh the movements and I think you're in danger of assuming that once taught, a technique will not lose form over time or fall into bad habits as per a trainer's inability to consistently coach someone. It may be a different case if the trainer is present every gym session, but when your trainer sees your movements once every 4 months, it is an unfair assumption to make that a technique has been taught incorrectly.

Which leaves us only with shoulder press, which I strongly disagree about being bad to do behind neck. Have been doing the movement for years and I have never had an injury as a direct result of it, nor anyone I know who performs the same exercise. I have also taught it to many and Leesh is the only one with these issues. I have also witnessed her performing the movement without fault or any pain following it.

[rev210]

  On 16/11/2013 at 12:42 PM, L33SH said:

Birds is the one who taught me everything, are you saying he taught me wrong technique?

Okay I book physio next week.

Teaching technique is a skill in itself. I think Birds was trying to show you want he knows and for the most part he may do things ok himself. But, It's actually quite tricky to teach other people. Being a teacher yourself you can reflect on this truth. Putting it in edu speak. Trainers (good ones) are basically teachers and have mastered the pedagogy of physical training. Training different people - ages / sex / abilities requires a different understanding of the outcomes.

[L33SH]

  On 16/11/2013 at 1:15 PM, Birds said:

I taught Leesh the movements and I think you're in danger of assuming that once taught, a technique will not lose form over time or fall into bad habits as per a trainer's inability to consistently coach someone. It may be a different case if the trainer is present every gym session, but when your trainer sees your movements once every 4 months, it is an unfair assumption to make that a technique has been taught incorrectly.

Which leaves us only with shoulder press, which I strongly disagree about being bad to do behind neck. Have been doing the movement for years and I have never had an injury as a direct result of it, nor anyone I know who performs the same exercise. I have also taught it to many and Leesh is the only one with these issues. I have also witnessed her performing the movement without fault or any pain following it.

Come visit me more often then jerk

[rev210]

  On 16/11/2013 at 1:15 PM, Birds said:

Which leaves us only with shoulder press, which I strongly disagree about being bad to do behind neck. Have been doing the movement for years and I have never had an injury as a direct result of it, nor anyone I know who performs the same exercise. I have also taught it to many and Leesh is the only one with these issues. I have also witnessed her performing the movement without fault or any pain following it.

Birds , you aren't a trainer in my definition. You are someone who tries to help and motivate and that's not bad. If you call yourself a trainer then must take up a greater responsibility. Markos is a trainer for example.

To my mind ,I would probably not undertake training someone remotely. It would be irresponsible of me to do that to someone, as it would expose them to risk. I would be responsible for that. I would be responsible for their correct learning and execution. I could not ensure the actions to mitigate those issues so I would not agree to do it. Hence Markos doesn't e-train people.

Having said that I think you probably mean 'helping' people when you say trainer. So I am not putting you in that bucket. I also think it's great Leesh has someone to encourage her, who really cares about her.

Shoulder wise;

for your consideration.(what limited knowledge I have to give)

Behind the neck press puts the shoulder in extreme external and horizontal abduction. So you force the shoulder into the very end range of the joints motion. The glenohumeral joint is the most mobile and also the least stable joint in the body. Shoulder press is just much more stable with the humerus moving in the scapular plane. Thats about 25-30 deg forward.

Additionally ,the extra pressure / load is actually not required for development of the delts. It's not better to behind the head press in any way.

Peoples shoulder construction varies around the socket and this makes people predisposed to issues if they aren't adopting best practice.

The scapular position and load depending on the way peoples upper backs are can cause thorasic injury. With the right load it's just ready to pop.

I am guessing you have 'taught it' to a sample less than 30, making that statement invalid as evidence. Not that it's an issue , the muscle mags have taught it probably many thousand times more than that. Doesn't make it the 'best' way to lift or safe , then again nor does it make it a ineffective way to develop the delts . But, it's inferior to the press in front and it's less stable nature means a higher risk of injury. So if you understand the choice you won't do it.

I speak with this understanding as I had behind the neck pressed for years and then did a very similar thing to Leesh with the thorasic spine. The anatomic expert who pointed this out to me back then ,was a physio and trainer of elite athletes.

Since then I learnt to do it 'better' and my press became far stronger almost overnight vs the old way.

Hopefully this information can be useful

Edited November 16, 2013 by rev210

[L33SH]

Rev, wouldn't in front shoulder press just be replicating the bench press movement which I already do?

The reason Birds gave me behind the neck shoulder press is because I want to develop my delts.

[rev210]

Shoulder press in front is equally effective for delt development, it's a non-issue. Your pecs are minor muscles in the movement in both methods.

You may find you get more development actually from the front version.

Remember the supporting muscles need to have a turn too, so they a balanced in strength to the delts internal rotation strength.

[Birds]

If it's good enough for this lad to do 125kg overhead, then it's good enough for me. But you try telling him he should be doing it in front.

I have tried both in front and behind the neck; I find the latter offers better isolation of the delts, taking the chest and (some) of the tris out of the equation. This exercise helped me a great deal with other shoulder heavy exercises and hypertrophy of the shoulders in general.

I teach people to do the movement with little more than a broomstick for a starting weight. Once they have the flexibility and we have determined they can perform the movement correctly and without pain, like any other movement I teach, then we look at increasing weight. Your issue is that, again, you are basing assumptions of my teachings on one person who may or may not have predispositions to injuries whereby no matter how a press is taught they may succumb to them.

As for training, I don't care if I'm not a trainer in your definition. Those who seek help from me get it and they can call me a trainer if that's what they want to do. They know the merits and limitations of the advice that I give them - the thing is that people come to me because they see I've been successful in one way or another that appeals to them and they want to replicate what I have done. So I help them, and have done so successfully in my eyes. Like I said, I'm not there to train Leesh fulltime. This makes coaching hard, but if Leesh is willing to make do with what we have then I am happy to help. Most here would agree that she has made some good progress, and not to take anything away from Leesh's efforts, she would not have obtained these were it not for me teaching them to her in the first place - au contraire, she would still be wasting time on a treadmill.

[rev210]

  On 16/11/2013 at 2:51 PM, Birds said:

If it's good enough for this lad to do 125kg overhead, then it's good enough for me. But you try telling him he should be doing it in front.

I have tried both in front and behind the neck; I find the latter offers better isolation of the delts, taking the chest and (some) of the tris out of the equation. This exercise helped me a great deal with other shoulder heavy exercises and hypertrophy of the shoulders in general.

If you care to investigate the anatomy elements against your anecdotal understanding ,you will discover what I am saying is true. If you wish to continue doing what you do thats fine as well.

Last time Leesh had a shoulder pop , which turned out to be the thorasic spine injury I called it before diagnosis because sadly I have been through the same experience. I learnt why it happens. My shoulder construction wasn't at fault then either , nor was my form.

The guy in the vid has the bar quite high up on the neck. Thats good form , it's keeping the range of motion away from the extreme extension and angle. He's also doing partials. Maybe he buggered his shoulder or back up and got some advice?

here's a little guy pressing 150kg. because posting vids is fun.

[rev210]

oh and at my best I picked 118kg off the deck (clean) and could press for 5 strict , full ROM, at half that dudes size. Reckon he might have given me a few minutes to chat.... ha ha.

[rev210]

I'll stop clogging your thread now Leesh...sorry ranting away there.

[L33SH]

Thanks for your comments.

I did some research last night and I don't think there is anything wrong with behind the head press. However due to my injury I may be better off to perform in front of the head shoulder press. I still get pain from my injury, sleeping on that side is still a no go and I do get some lower back pain when pressing 25kg. The only thing I'm worried about is that my trainer is not here to show me how to do it correctly whereas I know how to do behind the head with correct form. I guess I can play around with it and see which feels best for me.

[Birds]

  On 17/11/2013 at 1:37 AM, rev210 said:

If you care to investigate the anatomy elements against your anecdotal understanding ,you will discover what I am saying is true. If you wish to continue doing what you do thats fine as well.

Last time Leesh had a shoulder pop , which turned out to be the thorasic spine injury I called it before diagnosis because sadly I have been through the same experience. I learnt why it happens. My shoulder construction wasn't at fault then either , nor was my form.

The guy in the vid has the bar quite high up on the neck. Thats good form , it's keeping the range of motion away from the extreme extension and angle. He's also doing partials. Maybe he buggered his shoulder or back up and got some advice?

here's a little guy pressing 150kg. because posting vids is fun.

For someone who doesn't believe in e-training, you're doing an awful lot of e-diagnosis? Are you a chiropractor or have you treated Leesh as an irl patient before? Or is your diagnosis as "guesswork" as my training? You say that you would never call yourself a trainer, yet you have consistently given her suggestions on form in the past (which haven't fixed anything btw)? If that isn't e-training then I don't know what is.

And lol, it's not about who can post the heaviest lifting video...video was simply to prove my point that you can lift safely and heavily with the movement. And you can. So I do the movement, no issues.