HP of F1 car

[Emre]

Still can't agree with you in that respect. One must look at the position in the present time frame and not the pre-historic.

Oh, so going by your criteria, Honda and Renault are useless in F1 as well as Subaru in WRC. Toyota must suck in JGTC too, as they haven't won it since 1999. How about that Nissan @ LeMans...?

Why do they bother, the useless pricks...?

I don't know whether you have or not, but i would encourage you to read up on Cosworth a little and appreciate their involvement in motorsport in the past 4-5 decades. Can you name me one manufacturer that competed in F1, ChampCar, WRC, Nascar and even MotoGP as well as over a handful other motorsport categories.

I am not trying to convert you to become a Cosworth fan here, but making the point that they deserve a lot more credit than they get on this board. Just because they've been involved with Ford for a number of decades and currently owned by Ford may give the impression that they are rather dull and pathetic. You, yourself admitted to this.

The fact is, their engineering, design and build are exceptional and they have the facilities that many others don't.

Consider that Cosworth produces engines for 3 manufacturers from an accounting perspective. There are no two teams on the grid with the same engine in F1 today. Therefor it recieves thrice the revenue. My OPINION is that most engine manufacturers spend more money on r&d than on direct material costs. Therefor instead of spending minor r&d on three engines wouldn't it be beneficial to make one engine? and delivering at the same or a minor increment in price to the 3 manufacturers? maybe they lack the resources in this era which makes them a BUDGET and LESSER manufacturer!

I don't claim to know anything about the accounting side of Cosworth, but what you are saying does not make sense. Most of the R&D is done on the Jag engine and i'd doubt if there is any current R&D in Minardi's one. They are using an older engine which makes further R&D on it rather pointless. They don't collect thrice the revenue of Ferrari for their engine program, their revenue is tied with the supported teams' budgets. They do have a less budget than Ferrari, BMW and Toyota's engine department but this doen't make them a lesser manufacturer.

Your argument is based on speculation.

I believe that Jag are getting the most out of their package, but can not go further with a useless engine!

Now, this is a ridiculous comment.

Mate, it's allright to have an opinion, but i just have to ask :

What exactly are you basing that opinion on...? Is it a gut feeling...?

It is well publicised that chassis, suspension and aerodynamics of the R5 is still under development. Even Michelin have tons of work to do, in order to catch up with Bridgestone. Considering you said "Im fairly certain that Jag uses the CR6, proven to be the only reliable component of the car for Webber " earlier on, i'd have to say that you're just contradicting yourself.

[DSKYLINE2C]

Oh, so going by your criteria, Honda and Renault are useless in F1 as well as Subaru in WRC. Toyota must suck in JGTC too, as they haven't won it since 1999. How about that Nissan @ LeMans...?

Why do they bother, the useless pricks...?

loll u are just confusing youself here......once again Ill remind you we are talking about present and not the past. Honda and renault are doing well now. Although recall when Fisichella was driving for them?

I don't know whether you have or not, but i would encourage you to read up on Cosworth a little and appreciate their involvement in motorsport in the past 4-5 decades. Can you name me one manufacturer that competed in F1, ChampCar, WRC, Nascar and even MotoGP as well as over a handful other motorsport categories.

We are debating on the effects of the Cosworth engine in F1 TODAY, whats it got to do with appreciation of their competition other forms of motorsport?. I appreciate their involvement but I can not admit that they are supplying a decent engine to Jag.

[

Now, this is a ridiculous comment.

Mate, it's allright to have an opinion, but i just have to ask :

What exactly are you basing that opinion on...? Is it a gut feeling...?

It is well publicised that chassis, suspension and aerodynamics of the R5 is still under development. Even Michelin have tons of work to do, in order to catch up with Bridgestone. Considering you said "Im fairly certain that Jag uses the CR6, proven to be the only reliable component of the car for Webber " earlier on, i'd have to say that you're just contradicting yourself.

Im not sure if your just not mentally capable of comprehending simple statements or you just have to rebut every statement I make. Reliability has nothing to do with performance. I advise you to read a dictionary.

I am not sure if you are aware but every component is being developed in every car every week. Notice last year how Williams didn't fare well until Monte Carlo, next thing you know they almost claimed the title. Its not a co-incidence, every car in F1 is further developed during the year not only in off season.

Im just saying that their engine has been the most reliable part of Webber's car thus far. He's had plenty of other failures non engine related even though they may excel performance.

[Emre]

Heh… I think you are the confused one here mate.

You’ve made a generalized, stereotypic comment about americans being useless pricks , re : Cosworth.

2weeks down the track, you are still trying to defend it by making ridiculous statements to support your argument.

We are debating on the effects of the Cosworth engine in F1 TODAY, whats it got to do with appreciation of their competition other forms of motorsport?.

YOU are debating that issue, because it blends in nicely with your argument.

I put it to you that, you can't judge a team's (or a nation's) worthy performance by their results in a single calendar year.

Im not sure if your just not mentally capable of comprehending simple statements or you just have to rebut every statement I make. Reliability has nothing to do with performance. I advise you to read a dictionary.

What a condescending attitude you have !

Let me explain it to you.

In one statement you are branding Cosworth as the only reliable component for Jag; in another, you are saying Cosworth is the only thing holding Jag back. If that is not contadictrary, i don't know what is.

Obviously, in your mind, having 2 rookie drivers and a new tyre manufacturer on board, do not have much to do with things. The team performs admirably in all areas but the engine holds them back. Is that because, americans are useless pricks...?

[DSKYLINE2C]

You still need to learn the difference between reliability and performance. Once again, dictionary would be an adviseable source. Ill give you a head start....

Think of it this way, the engine is reliable (learn meaning) yet lacks performance (learn meaning). The other components of the car lack reliablity but excel in performance.

Please read, then re-read and then re-re-read the above statement until you comprehend it, since it obviously takes you long.

I put it to you that, you can't judge a team's (or a nation's) worthy performance by their results in a single calendar year.

agreed, tell me the highlight of cosworth's performance with Jaguar over the last three years (since this how I base the credebility of teams)?

It's a very simple arguement so avoid drifting from the topic.

[T0nyGTSt]

For engine internals, one can take an educated guess.

3.0 litres v10 - each piston is 300ml - with an average sized crown, say on an oversquare engine for max flow, I'd imagine it'd be 70-80mm?

The RB25/26 is 86mm.

The stroke would be 50mm?

Actually by my very crap back of serviette calcs, an 86mm bore with a 50mm stroke would make the a V10 of around 3.0 litres.

Given that the RB26 runs ~73mm stroke, I'd imagine a 50mm stroke or less would make for twice the RPM given sufficient materials and balancing.

T.

[Emre]

Your attitude is beginning to shit me !

I am aware of the meanings of reliability and performance.

The contradicting part of your statement is as follows : There has been 9 races in F1 this year, Webber's car did not finish 5 times out of 9 and only one of them is engine related. From the remaining 4 races he finished in the points twice. How does a reliable component of a racing team, hold them back from getting into the points ? Webber qualified second in Malaysia, (a tightish circuit with two long straights) not a bad effort with a useless engine. There is a lot of work to be done at Jaguar for them to be competitive and if I was the man running the team, I would concentrate on the unreliable components first.

Do you hold a position in the Jaguar racing team...? Where is your judgement of "every other component of the car except the Cosworth engine excel in performance" coming from...? How are you able to come to that conclusion, i'd love to know.

Refer to post 34 for my answer on Cosworth's achievements. It's clear that I don't agree with the way you base a team's credibility, so why are you trying to fish out the same answer from me...? In 1999, Cosworth supposedly had the most powerful engine in F1 supplying the Stewart team, during Ford's first year of ownership. 5 years down the track, they are not fairing so well, but they are far from useless. They do have a lot on their plate and maybe Ford is holding back on some decent funding till the team proves that they are able to tango with the best.

[Emre]

Tony,

I think bore x stroke ratio is somewhere between 2:1 and 2.5:1.

95mm x 40mm is stuck in my memory for some reason.

[DSKYLINE2C]

Your attitude is beginning to shit me !

The feeling is mutual

Undoubtably Webber is an excellent driver. Although, you failed to mention what actually happened at the BEGINNING and duration of the Malasian race. Engine as usual wasn't a problem since its reliable, although some component in the launch failed, hence unreliable. My point being whats the point of having a reliable engine if it is not competitive, as in the case of Minardi! Although it does come in handy when scavanging points as in the Indianapolis GP (Zolts)

For any manufacturer to enter F1 the ultimate in motorsport is a mamoth achievement. Having said that, Cosworth are providing the least best engine of the 10 teams (7 excluding JAG, Jordan, Minardi). Its as simple as that.

When one would say "Hawthorn is crap", it is obvious that the players constitute of very good skills yet they are performing the worst out of the rest of the teams.

as for the rest of the post.....off-topic as usual....loll

really becoming repetitive

[Emre]

How is a reliable but useless engine able to power the Jag to second fastest time in qualifying...? All credit can not got to Webber surely.

Talking about off-topic, you seem to weave around quite well yourself and address the points that suits you.

When one would say "Hawthorn is crap", it is obvious that the players constitute of very good skills yet they are performing the worst out of the rest of the teams.

WTF does that supposed to mean...? Are you contradicting yourself again...?

There must be one crap player in there to resemble Cosworth surely.

Whose fault is it that the team is not performing...? Is there just that one single player holding Hawthorn back...?

Go on leave most of the questions un-answered and crap on about how bad Cosworth is doing in the pasr three years. (since this how YOU base the credebility of teams)

[DSKYLINE2C]

Just randomly quoteing my points doesn't automatically mean you have found a contradiction, it's easy to quote 4 or 5 points and say there are contradictions without explaining VALIDLY. READING and COMPREHENDING would be a good tool to assist you in this concern.

I am referring to the whole team in that context and not individual players, therefor I am relating it to Cosworth and not Jag. Since its difficult for you to interpret the meaning unambiguously I'll explain once again. To enter your football team in AFL you must be competitive, therefor in that context Hawthorn is a good enough team to get into the level of AFL. Yet to be competitive in AFL they must excel over the other teams, which they are lacking at the moment.......If you can not comprehend this I really advise you go back to school.

[Emre]

This is becoming hilarious, we have a linguistic expert at hand now.

If you are relating Hawthorn FC to Cosworth, you have to understand that Cosworth are not competing on their own in F1. Their success is directly tied with the performance of all other components within the Jaguar Racing Team. You are faced with a similar situation at Sauber, they are using the current Ferrari engine and gearbox which is the best in the competition, yet they sorely lack the success of Ferrari Racing Team.

Which brings up the same question again :

Do you hold a position in the Jaguar racing team...? Where is your judgement of "every other component of the car except the Cosworth engine excel in performance" coming from...? How are you able to come to that conclusion, i'd love to know.

[Garage Menace]

C'Mon guys...

Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics. You might win, but you are still retarded...

[DSKYLINE2C]

Ofcoarse, but I mean you can't deny it. Disregarding reliabilty issues, Jag would still be held back due to their egine.

"every other component of the car except the Cosworth engine excel in performance" is a general statement. I should have rephrased "every" with "most". Strightline speed is a good indication of the lack of performance of the Cosworth even though aero plays a role in straightline speed.

[browny]

Heres some pics people might be interested in:

All above are from the Ferrari 049 engine (year 2002).

Some features of the pistons & rods:

*Very thin rings

*The oil feed to the gudgeon pin goes up through the centre of the rod.

*The rod is for a V type block, in the 5th photo you can see that the rod material around the main bearing goes right down to the bearing, but on the other side (most of the other photos) there's a large 45° angle, which is for crank radius clearance.

*96mm bore x 41.4mm stroke

*119mm long conrod, centre to centre

*Rod/stroke ratio of 2.87:1 (!!!! A typical road engine is more like 1.7:1 or so)

*19mm gudgeon pin dia

*42-43mm big-end bearing dia

*~40mm dia inlet valves

*34-38mm dia exhaust valve

*The rods are titanium, coated to stop reactions.

*The rod bolts are probably made from the most exotic material out of all the parts shown

[dineth]

Hey guys, sorry this is a bit off the topic but i have always wanted to Know the majour difference between Indy cars and formula one cars. I hear conflicting things that the indya cars are quicker on a straight line but the F1 car will kill it on the track. the indy cars are turbo charged? correct me if im wrong and they use ethanol as fuel. So whats the majour differnce power and performance?

[Emre]

Have a read of the sites below.

Champ Cars

Indy Cars

F1 Cars

[LBR33]

Indy cars use pre-designed chassis by Lola. But F1 design their own so will always be superior

[Shrub32]

Cosworth has the best engine in champ car jeeez who cares it all comes down to money which is why ford pulled out! they werent commited. Coswroth for what their budget is are brilliant F1 engines

and those power figures are BS

[dineth]

thanks for the links emre. Wow the champ cars and the the F1 cars are very even when it comes to performance. Except a F1 car weighs a little less. High reving N/A 10 vs Massively boosted Turbo V8. would love to see a 1/4 mile drag between these 2 machines. I saw the tape of Shcuey go agaisnt a French jet fighter and he lost 2- 1. its unbeivable that he managed to pull a win!

[Shrub32]

Hey guys, sorry this is a bit off the topic but i have always wanted to Know the majour difference between Indy cars and formula one cars. I hear conflicting things that the indya cars are quicker on a straight line but the F1 car will kill it on the track. the indy cars are turbo charged? correct me if im wrong and they use ethanol as fuel. So whats the majour differnce power and performance?

F1 and Champ cars race on circuite de gilles villeneuve in canada, with F1 cars being 9 or 10 seconds faster around the track.

DSKYLINE2C you obvioulsy dont know much about F1 if you think jaguars woes all come down to the engine.