Formula One 2014

[Ants]

Ok, so after reading this http://www.20minutes.fr/sport/1454951-20141005-formule-1-nouvelle-operation-jules-bianchi

things are not getting much better pour pauvre Jules

My quick summary / translation is as follows:

He is scheduled within the next few hours to undergo further surgery as he his head has started to bleed again overnight.

Edit. He was breathing without assistance after the first surgery

[hrd-hr30]

Well I would argue if its wet and some one is in the fence and you need to recover it with a forklift you do need a safety car.

Besides what constitutes slow is arguable. You would know you self that knocking 10km/h off your corner speed feels massively slower to the driver than it really is. Given the down force shed by going slower it doesn't necessarily make it safer. Bianchi's accident would have been catastrophic at most speeds.

what constitutes slow would not be arguable if you enforced a speed limit in that sector as I mentioned in that previous post. Set a limit for yellows and double yellows.

And if slower isn't safer, there's no point sending a SC out either - all it does is slow them down. Better stop the race to recover a car - you know, just to be safe.

Motorsport is dangerous. Double waved yellows means extremely dangerous situation ahead in your already dangerous sport.

Edited October 8, 2014 by hrd-hr30

[Anfanee]

Ok, so after reading this http://www.20minutes.fr/sport/1454951-20141005-formule-1-nouvelle-operation-jules-bianchi

things are not getting much better pour pauvre Jules

My quick summary / translation is as follows:

He is scheduled within the next few hours to undergo further surgery as he his head has started to bleed again overnight.

Edit. He was breathing without assistance after the first surgery

Some slightly good news

[raZ1911]

Am i the only one who thinks nothing needs to be changed?

"It's pretty obvious that, well, sometimes shit happens, doesn't it?"

They will know now not to bring out the tractor on that corner unless its a safety car and that's it. No rules or procedures really need to be changed.

[Anfanee]

Unfortunately yes sometimes shit does happen.

[89CAL]

Am i the only one who thinks nothing needs to be changed?

"It's pretty obvious that, well, sometimes shit happens, doesn't it?"

They will know now not to bring out the tractor on that corner unless its a safety car and that's it. No rules or procedures really need to be changed.

I am sort of with you on this.

The only thing they should have changed, and alot of people are agreeing, is the start time. From what the drivers are saying, the fading light played a part in it. And they knew a Typhoon was coming. If it was just a storm, I could understand, but when they were going to feel affects from a Typhoon, thats always a bit worse then just a storm or rain.

It is pretty much a freak accident. Seen as Sutil had just aquaplaned off in the same spot, you cant say its completly suprising, but still the odds of hitting hte JCB at that angle and in that spot is pretty crazy

That JCB would probably weigh anywhere from 3-5ton as well, makes you think about the amount of force involved when the thing seemed to have been lifted and pushed like it was. I think its a credit to the cars/helmets etc that he survived at all.

[pistol-pete]

more like 13ton

[djr81]

Am i the only one who thinks nothing needs to be changed?

"It's pretty obvious that, well, sometimes shit happens, doesn't it?"

They will know now not to bring out the tractor on that corner unless its a safety car and that's it. No rules or procedures really need to be changed.

No, but you are ignoring peoples (the press, whoever conducts an enquiry/witch hunt etc) demands that something be done. Which is probably not unreasonable given what has happened but even if it is unreasonable maybe it is also unarguable for the FIA.

The least difficult change would be to put out a safety car when cars are being recovered in the wet. Which doesn't change much at all.

Having imaginary lines on the circuit for enforcing speed zones just makes it hard for everyone. Drivers will always go hard up until the line like they do on pit lane entries. Which isn't ideal.

[dezz]

The start time wasn't changed as it would have affected TV ratings in Europe... Bernie needs that cash

[Roy]

Now this morning's rumours seem pretty thin

http://www.f1today.net/en/news/hamilton-signs-for-mclaren-for-2015

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/10/mclaren-targeted-by-rumours-but-whats-behind-it/

[tweety bird]

[Aggroman]

Homo wont go back to mclaren next year, he will see out next year at merc and if Mercedes do poor he won't re sign

[Anfanee]

I could have sworn that he was practically signed at merc He would be crazy to leave now.

Next year will be interesting.

[hrd-hr30]

Start time is a strange factor to involve in this. How could they have started earlier - it was pissing down rain and they never start wet races until the track's pretty much ready for inters.

anyway, if Bianchi's crash had missed the JCB and got a Marshal, I think the questions being asked would be very different. Like how on earth does someone spear off under double waved yellows which often means there's marshals within the track confines? Surely he had been informed of the situation and location over the radio... And when you're under double yellows and required to go slow enough to take evasive action or technically even stop, how on earth was he going fast enough to aquaplane as people are suggesting happened? I haven't seen what caused the crash so I don't know where that info is coming from.

As for the SC suggestions, I think it's an over-reaction. It takes laps for cars to catch the SC because they have to lap to a delta time under SC conditions. Then they have to let the lapped cars through which seems to take another few laps. You're talking 10-15min minimum for a SC. When Bianchi hit that JCB, it was 2min from the time Sutil had crashed. 20sec later and the track would have been clear again. You want to stop racing and end the race under SC for the sake of just over 2min to clear the obstacle? An obstacle that all drivers would have been informed of over radio and with double waved yellows indicating an extreme hazard for the very short time the hazard existed? You may as well conduct the whole race under SC just to make sure no-one gets hurt.

Edited October 8, 2014 by hrd-hr30

[CEF33Y]

Coming from a workplace with a zero harm safety standpoint (steelmaking industry) I can't believe we are still sending marshals and recovery vehicles onto the track with cars doing almost race speed. (Japan and germany this year)

Lets face it, the double waved yellows, no one slows down anywhere near enough, all thats needed is the driver showing he has "lifted". Maybe thats not the rule, but it never gets enforced.

Tracks are designed (generally) with safety in mind (barrier placement, tire stacks etc) in the event of a driver leaving the course. By placing a recovery tractor on the track side of the barrier is absolutely unacceptable.

The only reason Jules has the injury he does is the fact that tractor was there. Take the tractor out of the equation, he would of hit the barrier, or sutils car, both which would of not been any where near the severity of what happened.

I think I'll be a minority here, but IMO no marshall, or recovery vehicle should be on the track untill the whole field is under the control of a safety car.

You can't put people's lives at risk like that, its ludicrous.

Its a bloody joke, and the FIA need to tighten up their regulations on this sort of thing.

[Gts-t]

Would be interesting to see sutils on board and see how he crashed, you would think jukes would have done nearly exactly the same thing to end up in the same spot. Did they both try to slow down too fast and spin the car maybe?

With regard to the start time of the race f1 organisers asked Honda who is the even promoter in Japan if they would like to start the race earlier in the day and they declined to change the start time.

[Anfanee]

It was just a freak accident. It is bound to happen in a sport like this. He would have known it was there and he stuffed up in his judgement.

But i also agree there has to be a better way of removing cars so the danger isn't there.

[hrd-hr30]

Surely start times are dictated by Bernie for the Euro TV audiences and the millions in advertising revenue, not the local promoter.

Coming from a workplace with a zero harm safety standpoint (steelmaking industry) I can't believe we are still sending marshals and recovery vehicles onto the track with cars doing almost race speed. (Japan and germany this year)

Lets face it, the double waved yellows, no one slows down anywhere near enough, all thats needed is the driver showing he has "lifted". Maybe thats not the rule, but it never gets enforced.

Tracks are designed (generally) with safety in mind (barrier placement, tire stacks etc) in the event of a driver leaving the course. By placing a recovery tractor on the track side of the barrier is absolutely unacceptable.

The only reason Jules has the injury he does is the fact that tractor was there. Take the tractor out of the equation, he would of hit the barrier, or sutils car, both which would of not been any where near the severity of what happened.

I think I'll be a minority here, but IMO no marshall, or recovery vehicle should be on the track untill the whole field is under the control of a safety car.

You can't put people's lives at risk like that, its ludicrous.

Its a bloody joke, and the FIA need to tighten up their regulations on this sort of thing.

It's about risk management. Its a temporary risk at one isolated point of the track with other mitigation factors employed to warn drivers of that temporary, isolated risk - radio and double waved yellows. Banchi hit the JCB less than 2min after Sutil crashed. Another 20 sec or so and the hazard would have been clear. No need to shut down the whole race track for 10-15 minutes for that. Just properly enforce the double waved yellow rules. The framework is already in plae - when a SC is deployed drivers have to lap to a delta time. Just make it a certain delta time for sectors in yellow. Simple.

Edited October 8, 2014 by hrd-hr30

[CEF33Y]

Well, the risk management failed this time, and resulted in a driver being seriously injured.

The people making the decision to recover this car using the JCB should have identified the hazards, some of which being, worsening conditions, tractor on the outside of a fast turn (!) where another car has previously come off.

There is no way that tractor should have been sent out without a safety car. Yes i'd rather "shut down the whole race track for 10-15 minutes for that" than see anyone suffer the same fate as jules.

If it would have been a marshal, we would have been reading about a death.

Setting a delta time for yellow sector still leaves a risk present, what if the driver chooses not to stick to delta time, then comes off? would have been the same result.

The only way to eliminate the risk is to not have the tractor where it can be hit.

The marshals on the track in germany was another one that had me cringing. All of these near misses are forgotten about while they are just that, a near miss. Doing nothing about a near miss results in an actual incident, sooner or later.

Anyway, just my opinion, and I sincerely hope Jules recovers and can lead a somewhat normal life.

[hrd-hr30]

risk management does not equal risk elimination!!! The only way to eliminate the risks in motorsport is not to conduct motorsport.

The risk management did not fail - it's just that the low likelihood risk eventuated this time, mainly because the driver didn't take heed of the risk mitigation procedures in place. Instead he was pushing to the limit and beyond despite knowing there was an extremely dangerous situation at that very part of the circuit.

setting a delta time for a sector presents exactly the same risk as deploying a Safety Car - cars run to deltas until they catch the SC up to several laps later. So if you consider that an unacceptable risk, then the only option is to red flag the race anytime a car needs to be recovered...

Edited October 9, 2014 by hrd-hr30