RB26DETT spun bearings

[ferni]

knore - thanks for the reply but didn't really answer either of my questions

[shoey]

I have priced a few options and here they are:

Jun sump baffle kit: approx $450. Fits into standard sump hence no extra oil capacity.

Grex sump extension + baffle: approx $520. This requires getting someone to alloy weld the extension on. Not sure on cost of welding? $100? This kit also appears to have a modified sump pickup.

rocket cover baffle: approx $220. Not sure if needed after some of the above replies.

Custom sump baffle as mentioned by SK: approx $1500. This includes around 8l of oil capacity, sump baffle trap doors, modified oil pickup, and return lines for oil feeds. Looks like a lot of $$ but seems to offer the best in oil increase and engine insurance.

Not sure if motor has to come out completely to modify sump. I have my motor out but would still see about 3-4 hours to take off sump and probably another 3-4 hours to fit again. I am not a mechanic so maybe they can do it faster.

I would like to hear about what the Trust kit offers?

[Whoneedstherapy]

The trust kit is like a big square bucket in shape that comes with it's own baffles and pick up to suit. The idea is to cut the bottom off your sump and weld it on. I've seen a few done and in the end i personally feel it's not really worth the effort for the extra 1L (apparently) of oil. A few people i've talked to as well as myself found by the time it was properly attached it only added about 500-700mls capacity all up.

Also it can create ground clearance issues as it does sit fairly low and the last thing you want to do at speed is take your sump off.

[Merli]

The trust kit is like a big square bucket in shape that comes with it's own baffles and pick up to suit. The idea is to cut the bottom off your sump and weld it on. I've seen a few done and in the end i personally feel it's not really worth the effort for the extra 1L (apparently) of oil. A few people i've talked to as well as myself found by the time it was properly attached it only added about 500-700mls capacity all up.  

Also it can create ground clearance issues as it does sit fairly low and the last thing you want to do at speed is take your sump off.

You get a 1.5L capacity increase actually... With a decently sized oil cooler, you could be looking at an extra 1-1.5L capacity, giving you 7.5-8L oil volume all up. Enough for most cars I'm sure you'll agree.

It does sit lower than the standard sump, but not by that much. I think the whole clearance thing has been blown WAY out of proportion. Most people harping on about the clearance issues are just regurgitating what they've heard on the internet or from other people verbatim, without actually having any experience with the extension kit itself.

Yes, it DOES lower the sump floor, but on a sensible ride height (100mm legal minimum height) GTR, it will NOT prove to be a problem on public roads. With it being close to the axle and hence the wheels, speed humps will not affect the sump. The only possible problems I can envisage are:

1. extra huge potholes and tilt the car at an extreme angle and cause it to bottom out halfway (not exactly common)

2. on the racetrack, if you undershoot the apex and straddle the ripple strips. That could hit the sump.... then again, that would hit ANY sump extension, Performance Metalcraft or Trust..

shoey: here's a link to the GReddy website, you can babelfish to translate it

http://www.trust-power.com/02greddy/oil_pa...pgrade_kit.html

[vspecv]

knore - thanks for the reply but didn't really answer either of my questions

yep engine out, so add around $1500 in labour to the quoted figures.

[rb26dett]

I've got the Trust sump extension and Trust 10 row oil cooler. Running about 9 litres of oil.

[omp]

Another bearing failure is this one. Having the engine rebulder put the centre bearing (the one with the thrust) upside down. So the bearing with the hole in it is in the crank girdle. This tore up the rear face on that journal....Oh well re-rebuild time.

[whytry]

????weird???

i have r32gtr with fully rebuilt rb26dett (forgies, balanced etc) it has 285kw at all four wheels 300 at the rears (2510's) have the oil cooler and relocator kit and too many other mods too long to list here. (i'm not after outright power/kw just strong torque thoughout the rev range which the 2510's do quite nicely)

i have been to wakefield 6 times (falken azenis semi slicks, teins HA) and NO oil sump mods whatsoever. before and after a full day racing i change the oil mobil 1, i have not experianced any oil surge dramas to date. (except that i'll be changing the oil to motul due to the 'viscosity properties'of mobile 1 in which the oil 'breaks' down)

during those times at wakefield i usually post low 1:13s (i know it's not much to brag about, but am getting there) i do know of all the jap brands of 'sumps' on offer. as well as what sydney kid mentioned performance metalcraft which i think are high octane.

at the moment i am not too sure when to actually change the oil sump and when i do have to i'll be going the dry sump setup. i know it's pricy at $5 grands worth fitted but worth it.

just am wondering how the japanese go about it when they do their famous car testing in either the best motoring dvd's or option dvd's especially when they pit a curent 'stock' model gtr against other cars with no dramas besides the oil temp rising.

or maybe i'm not pushing the car hard enough at the track, which i'm sure i do as it consistently dances around the 7-8000rpm mark.

[Duncan]

  just am wondering how the japanese go about it when they do their famous car testing in either the best motoring dvd's or option dvd's especially when they pit a curent 'stock' model gtr against other cars with no dramas besides the oil temp rising.

having watched those vids that might be because they aren't really pushing that hard anyway...the quality of the tyres you run make a huge difference in cornering speeds and thus g forces.

Having said that of course I blew min up on crappy road tyres, but it was revving pretty high at the time.

[shoey]

Hey guys, sorry to open this again, but:

Is it possible that by adding a remote oil filter kit with the oil filter opening pointing down that you are starving the engine of needed oil. For example:

With the motor off the oil level in the sump is Ok. Once started, the oil pressure fills the remote oil filter, which takes from the motor the amount of oil required to fill the oil filter plus associated lines? In the normal position the oil filter would still contain a certain amount of oil when the motor is off.

Maybe the oil filter should be mounted with the opening up so that the filter is full even when the motor is Off?

[shoey]

Guys, I got some pictures of the custom sump I got made to fix the above problems. How do I insert these

[Sydneykid]

Hey guys, sorry to open this again, but:

Is it possible that by adding a remote oil filter kit with the oil filter opening pointing down that you are starving the engine of needed oil.  For example:

With the motor off the oil level in the sump is Ok.  Once started, the oil pressure fills the remote oil filter, which takes from the motor the amount of oil required to fill the oil filter plus associated lines?  In the normal position the oil filter would still contain a certain amount of oil when the motor is off.

Maybe the oil filter should be mounted with the opening up so that the filter is full even when the motor is Off?

If the system is sealed then it can't "drain", that said I never mount an oil filter high up in the engine bay, ditto oil cooler they are always mounted as low as I can get them.

[RB_26]

If the system is sealed then it can't "drain", that said I never mount an oil filter high up in the engine bay,  ditto oil cooler they are always mounted as low as I can get them.

Old one this.. this was never responded to tho..

Interesting, most of the relocation kits I've seen are mounted way high up beside the fuse box.. is it fair to say that there may be a greater danger to the oil levels if this is the case? You mentioned if the system was sealed, is this the case on the basic Grex kit most people use? I will be running this and an oil cooler - christ will I have any oil in the sump?!!

Lastly, good links to custom sump kits? other than the trust one?

Cheers guys.

[Sydneykid]

Old one this.. this was never responded to tho..

Interesting, most of the relocation kits I've seen are mounted way high up beside the fuse box.. is it fair to say that there may be a greater danger to the oil levels if this is the case? You mentioned if the system was sealed, is this the case on the basic Grex kit most people use? I will be running this and an oil cooler - christ will I have any oil in the sump?!!

Lastly, good links to custom sump kits? other than the trust one?

Cheers guys.

 

The remote filters are mounted high up, next to the fuse box because it is easier to get to them there. Good Jap mechanics charge like brain surgeons, so you probably save a $100 per oil change in labour.

All remote and cooler installations are "sealed" otherwise the oil would squirt out under pressure. This means no air can get in, if no air can get in then the oil won't drain. It has to be replaced by something, otherwise you would have a vacuum created by the draining oil.

Some links...

This is the ever popular Moroso SMC circuit race sump, note the wings, trap doors and baffles;

This is the Morosa Ford circuit race sump, note the wings, trap doors and baffles;

Now compare those to the Moroso SBC drag race sump, note how deep it is and it has no wings, trap doors or baffles

The design is different because drag cars don't go around corners, so side to side centrifical forces do not have to be catered for. The drag sump is designed to stop the oil from being forced up and back under acceleration.

Hope that is of some help:cheers:

[discopotato03]

Hi Sk , I think I saw that RB26 in bits and it was annihilated in no uncertain terms . Block holed , smashed pistons , broken girdle , stuffed crank , bent or broken valves and hammered head . From memory the oil pump was cracked through the case as well .

I'm interested to know about the extra drain and any other mods to get oil from the top end back to the sump . With that engine above the fellow who pulled it down (AJ) wondered about windage in these engines at constant high rpm . I guess its not like a chain driven twin cam with the huge passage up front to help drain the oil from the head . Obviously it can be done well enough to survive 1000km at race pace so hopefully we can benefit from the R and D that Gibson Motor Sport did in the late 80's early 90's . Any inside clues or personal findings ?

Thanks SK , A .

[Sydneykid]

Hi Sk , I think I saw that RB26 in bits and it was annihilated in no uncertain terms . Block holed , smashed pistons , broken girdle , stuffed crank , bent or broken valves and hammered head . From memory the oil pump was cracked through the case as well .  

I'm interested to know about the extra drain and any other mods to get oil from the top end back to the sump . With that engine above the fellow who pulled it down (AJ) wondered about windage in these engines at constant high rpm . I guess its not like a chain driven twin cam with the huge passage up front to help drain the oil from the head . Obviously it can be done well enough to survive 1000km at race pace so hopefully we can benefit from the R and D that Gibson Motor Sport did in the late 80's early 90's . Any inside clues or personal findings ?

Thanks SK  , A .

For a proper race engine, we have some simple rules we follow;

Rule #1 don't have an engine with excessive blowby, keep the tolerances accurate, use gapless rings, run the engine in properly.

Rule #2 only allow as much oil as you need to flow up to the cylinder head. There are 2 oil feeds to the head in all RB's. GTR's have a restrictor in one feed to limit the oil flow. We block that one off completely, it simply isn't needed at constant high rpm's.

Rule #3 clean out the oil returns, port them so they return more oil to the sump quicker.

Rule #4 have an external oil return to the sump, into the top of the left hand wing is normal. Check the RHS wing on the SBC sump above.

Rule #5 run a big catch can. with baffles and or stainless steel wool insde to separate the air from the oil.

Rule #6 use a sump with baffles, trap doors and wings. Run a crank windage tray to make sure the crank doesn't whip the oil on rotation. And a crank scraper to remove as much oil that is following in the partial vacuum that the crank creates as it spins.

Rule #7 try not to use Jap "brand name" oil pumps (the ones that fit in the standard location), a full dry sump kit is cheaper and far more effective. When using a dry sump set up have one of the scavenge stages picking up oil from the cam covers.

You can't compare to the Gibson GTR's they had to run under the Group A rules, which didn't allow dry sumps if I remember rightly. They did use an external oil pump (same as a dry sump pump) but they returned the oil to the sump, not a remote tank.

Hope that is of some help:cheers:

[RB_26]

The remote filters are mounted high up, next to the fuse box because it is easier to get to them there.  Good Jap mechanics charge like brain surgeons, so you probably save a $100 per oil change in labour.

All remote and cooler installations are "sealed" otherwise the oil would squirt out under pressure.  This means no air can get in, if no air can get in then the oil won't drain.  It has to be replaced by something, otherwise you would have a vacuum created by the draining oil.

Some links...

This is the ever popular Moroso SMC circuit race sump, note the wings, trap doors and baffles;

This is the Morosa Ford circuit race sump, note the wings, trap doors and baffles;

Now compare those to the Moroso SBC drag race sump, note how deep it is and it has no wings, trap doors or baffles

The design is different because drag cars don't go around corners, so side to side centrifical forces do not have to be catered for.  The drag sump is designed to stop the oil from being forced up and back under acceleration.

Hope that is of some help:cheers:

Thanks, great response.

Eye opener on the 'winged' versions... the Grex one appears to be similar to the drag version.

Are there 'off the shelf' RB26DETT sumps available other than the Tomei etc ?

Thanks again

[proengines]

We make a baffle for any 26 engines we do now and weld it to the bottom of the std windage tray, it's square shaped around the pickup with 4 trapdoors, front, rear, left and right that all open inwards towards the pickup on a loose hinge. Whichever way the oil tries to move away from the pickup closes the trapdoors in that direction to keep the oil around the pickup.

A dry sump is a heaps better option though if you have the money to spend.

Has anyone thought of fitting an oil accumulator? when you're running the lines for a remote filter and cooler it's a pretty easy thing to plumb in and can make up for those few seconds of low or no oil pressure. Some info on accumulators at :

http://www.moroso.com/articles/articledisp...l&catcode=13600

[ylwgtr2]

We make a baffle for any 26 engines we do now and weld it to the bottom of the std windage tray, it's square shaped around the pickup with 4 trapdoors, front, rear, left and right that all open inwards towards the pickup on a loose hinge. Whichever way the oil tries to move away from the pickup closes the trapdoors in that direction to keep the oil around the pickup.

A dry sump is a heaps better option though if you have the money to spend.

Has anyone thought of fitting an oil accumulator? when you're running the lines for a remote filter and cooler it's a pretty easy thing to plumb in and can make up for those few seconds of low or no oil pressure. Some info on accumulators at :

http://www.moroso.com/articles/articledisp...l&catcode=13600

Thats the excact way i do them too.....i thought of using the accumulator too....i also re size the oil feed gallerys

[RB_26]

Thats the excact way i do them too.....i thought of using the accumulator too....i also re size the oil feed gallerys

Ok guys, so you both make em... got any links? PM with price and how to find out more info