Water/water Meth Vs High Ethanol Content Juice .

[discopotato03]

Hi all , I've been reading up on water/water methanol injection of late because no matter what I do I can't get acceptable consumption out of E70 in a daily driven GTS25T . I'm not the worlds best road tuner but I can get my car to start cold and drive quite well around the burbs . Most of my driving is in traffic and the AC isn't used much .

I think standard V8s do better than I do , topped off last night and got around 110 km out of 18L of E70 .

Back when I was using the PFC and trying all different eth blends I could do much better on home blended E30/98 but it's a pain doing custom mixes .

Since you can't buy fuel like this at the pump , and in places can't get E70/85 at all , I started looking at alternatives and a mate who hates ethanol suggested water/water meth injection . It's probably best to weigh the pros and conns of each and see which has the best overall fit for those interested .

E70/85 . Fact is that you need to inject maybe 25-30% more because per volume it doesn't generate as much heat as petrol . Pricing of E70/85 is a rip because ethanol is much cheaper to produce than ULP , when it's cheap it's around 1.20/L and I haven't looked of late but I'm guessing when cheap 98 ULP is maybe 1.50 + /L . 30c on 1.50 is not 25-30% so you get burnt on the heat content of what you buy as E70/85 .

I'd say the on/off throttle traffic driving really shows up the downside of ethanols lower heat generation and at the end of the day heat IS power .

The advantage of ethanol is less heat when heat and pressure lead to detonation , using that extra 25-30% of fluid obviously increases charge cooling .

Obtaining pump E70/85 is easy provided you have at least two or three local servos selling it .

W/WMI . This has been around for a long time and we know it works effectively at charge cooling and detonation suppression .

In it's favour water is cheap and alcohol is not that hard to get . It's probably possible to use methanol ethanol and maybe even metho at a pinch .

From what I read W/WMI is really good at charge cooling and this is a plus overall .

My big question is does it work well enough to use really low octane fuels such as straight 91 ULP and give E70 type results , or at the least better than 98ULP results ?

I know some people have the idea that higher octane ULP is king and no self respecting propeller head would ever use 91 oct cows piss . But the thing is the main difference between 91 and 98 , so I'm told , is anti nock additives blended in to increase it's detonation resistance . Basically things that make it harder to ignite so it's mainly your ignition system lighting the fire . As we know even 98 detonates when the combustion heat and pressure get beyond certain points .

The downside of W/WMI is that once you tune an engine for it you lose the charge cooling and detonation suppression if it chooses not to work - for any reason . To be engine reliable you'd have to have fail safes or an EMS that can haul the timing back if serious detonation set in .

What either system is about is detonation resistance so more power friendly timing can be used and or higher boost pressures if that's your thing .

I think if you want power and reasonable fuel consumption the go is to use a cheaper fuel that could give good light throttle low load heat generation and find ways to raise the detonation threshold enough to still make good power . In a way using E70/85 all the time is a bit like using race oct ULP all the time - expensive octane for shit when you don't need it which is a lot of the time .

IMO if you can add effective octane cheaply and easily you get the best of both worlds . I need to read up on WMI with low octane ULP vs a mid grade like 95 because 91 WMI idea may not work out overall .

Mafias findings are the ones I keep coming back to because his results were so good for the GTS25T/GT3076R 0.63 IW/95 ULP/WMI setup . He did say his WMI system was a bit crude and the component quality was just so .

Later systems from mobs like AEM Snow and Aquamist etc look to be better made and have more fail safes built in .

I do like burning ethanol and it does smell better than ULP , it probably is more environmentally friendly but at the end of the day you use more of it and the oil co's are ripping you off selling a cheap product expensively .

We don't get blended pumps in Oz like they do in the US so you can't buy and tune blends in the 30 to 50% range . If we had these and the ULP component had a fixed octane rating you could have a reliable flex tune done and find you own sweet spot .

So , can we have sensible discussion based on facts and findings so we can all learn something and benefit from it . Really not interested in "power costs bro build the bridge" . Some of us aren't interested in bleeding edge performance but want more than standard cars have - and be able to feed the ride anywhere affordably .

16/100 is not acceptable in a 2.5L daily that isn't thrashed everywhere , cheers Adrian .

Edited November 30, 2013 by discopotato03

[Super Drager]

One of the things i like about WMI is it can be run fairly lean onto boost(12.5:1+) and be fairly happy. Being honest now 16L/100km isn't THAT bad, the few 98RON tuned skylines that have been in my family have all had similar consumption to that, especially in stop start traffic. You wrote you had a PFC previously, what do you run now?

[Guilt-Toy]

funny you brought this up, since i have been back and toyin with my new 33 gtst Guilt-Toy 2.0 i have been thinking about ways of saving some cash at the pump as my arse gets really sore being raped for 5 times the price of fuel of what i am used to.

I was thinking of going for a e10 mix with water injection only, skip the alcohol so its easier to run in a street car, every servo sells bottled water....

I have no doubt that a e10 mix with water injection will exceed the performance of 98 octane, and from the results i have seen with some of the monsters i have tuned over seas with m1 methanol and water with 98 octane pump gas i have tuned turbo 6's to over 1000hp at the wheels, a methanol mix will push you even further.

I am building 2.0 to be a very mild street car, standard manifolds and a hks 2535 turbo, 850cc injectors incase i decide to use flex with the adaptronic, at the moment i been a bit busy with other people's cars then to finish mine in a hurry but its getting there slowly.

I will start with getting the car running properly with 98 then sourcing a meth kit, because i have an adaptronic i can use a aux output to trigger it so the kit price will be cheaper, only need some hoses a pump and a solenoid and the jets and holder, maybe we can do some kind of group buy.

[scotty nm35]

If you could run the stock injectors on 91 octane using the factory map, then add e85 or water/meth off a map sensor through secondary injectors and a poly tank, it would give you the best of both worlds imo. Good cold starts off the factory computer/injectors, cheap 91 fuel, great economy, then as boost hits a p1ggybacked computer could adjust timing and fuel from the secondary injectors.

[Guilt-Toy]

If you could run the stock injectors on 91 octane using the factory map, then add e85 or water/meth off a map sensor through secondary injectors and a poly tank, it would give you the best of both worlds imo. Good cold starts off the factory computer/injectors, cheap 91 fuel, great economy, then as boost hits a p1ggybacked computer could adjust timing and fuel from the secondary injectors.

its not 1990 man.

[Super Drager]

If you could run the stock injectors on 91 octane using the factory map, then add e85 or water/meth off a map sensor through secondary injectors and a poly tank, it would give you the best of both worlds imo. Good cold starts off the factory computer/injectors, cheap 91 fuel, great economy, then as boost hits a p1ggybacked computer could adjust timing and fuel from the secondary injectors.

That's very similar to "octane on demand". ECU activates a secondary fuel rail and injectors from a secondary tank full of C16 when boost is detected.

[Dale FZ1]

Consumption is such a subjective area, dependent on car, driving technique, and conditions. I haven't driven in Sydney very much but it seemed fairly hectic last time I was there. 16l/100km is nothing to write home about but it's far from the worst either. I wonder what your Evo delivers in similar conditions Adrian?

Tuning for WI is a different science and dependent on system design and configuration. Constant/fixed pressure setups with pulsed solenoid delivery similar to fuel injection is top-line and offers the best outcome, but there might be packaging and installation issues to overcome.

Using 91 ULP and conventional pressure pump delivery has its biggest drawback in those situations you've alluded to in this thread and the ethanol tuning thread - ie. transient roll-on loading in the 1800-2500rpm range, just prior to boost, and up to say 5psi. It's possible to see these conditions on plenty of suburban road networks, and hold the engine there in a higher gear when you've got undulating country. Around that point you want/need extra knock resistance, and the ability to run decent ignition advance so the engine pulls acceptably well. I could see the need for a 10 litre WI tank to feed the system. Perhaps Guilt Toy's idea of E10 as the fuel would help.

Conventional WI setups seem to do their best and are used most frequently by introducing the water at higher loads eg 10+ psi, and from that point onwards I think the actual engine performance differential between it and E85 is not going to be that great. Distance between fuel fills for a similar power output when driven in a spirited fashion should favour the ULP + WI setup.

Downsides for living with WI would have to be a regimented service/cleaning of the nozzle/s. Setup considerations would have to include visual failsafes (flow warning light/chime) and tuning fallbacks built into the tune.

I couldn't imagine wanting to do an E85 setup on a Skyline at 400hp without the flex fuel sensor and 1000cc injectors which would probably mean a different fuel rail to hold them into a R33 spec engine.

The elephant in the room for me is still engine oil contamination, dependent on engine, power output, and patterns of usage.

[discopotato03]

Umm Guilt I don't know if using a GT28 turbo is such a good idea on an RB25 , probably a different story on an RB20 . It's possible that having a turbo that's "responsive" from down low doesn't really help a 25 where fuel costs are a consideration . One spot I find difficult to tune my engine is in the 22-2300 area , the more I open up the more the AFRs go backwards no matter what numbers I punch into the V44 (66) plug in . It could be because boost isn't up to regulated pressure and the housing by itself can't flow enough resulting in reversions .

(EDIT - might try switching off the cam solenoid in this small speed/load area if Vipec will let me .)

Different story higher up rev and boost wise where the gate opens and combined flow is greater .

Also by 2200 odd revs that's in 5th uphill at 80 clicks . Not that many people choose to drive like that but I try all different loads and revs trying to get the tune right . The pending 0.82 GT3076R should change things here .

Obviously standard cars with tiny turbos and exhausts cope somehow but its not just the turbo restricting the works .

Things I find interesting about WMI is people saying their engines run cooler overall as in coolant and the manifold etc is cool to touch . I find my indicated air inlet temps don't take much to climb up into the 30s and 40s in traffic though that could be the probe getting radiated and absorbed heat from the std cast crossover pipe . Maybe it should be further out in the air plumbing .

Anyway you'd think cool dense air would be best even without positive manifold pressure , obviously not at real light loads .

I dunno if WMI is the answer if you are after every last individual Kw and Nm , if really desperate for that then methanol would be better than ethanol because its stoic I think is in the 6s so hosing in possibly twice as much for the same heat as ULP and getting greater evaporative cooling than ethanol . I assume methanol is even more water absorbing than ethanol and everybody says more corrosive as well . My mate tells me ethanol is really a specialised fuel compared to petrol and possibly half the agro of methanol with half the benefits , especially the pump eth with 15-30% ULP . When you think about it the ULP in E70/85 is just there to remove the worst aspects of ethanol ie cold starting and I suppose the lack of lube for roller cell fuel pumps and injectors . Also there are issues with heat and fuel tank pressurisation in flex fuelled cars .

If you were keen to talk up WMI you would probably think these are the plusses compared to having an E85 system .

1) Can get by with less pump and possibly the 20a wiring to power it .

2) Less fuel circulating and transferring heat to the fuel tank .

3) Less injector so possibly better low speed fuel control .

4) Fuel/water , readily available and cheaper in lower octane .

5) Fuel consumption - maybe 20-30% better depending on use , or 11-12/100 vs 16 ?

6) Every day could be a cool damp one for your engine , not necessarily your tyres .

7) Engine internals steam cleaned though ethanol is supposed to do the same thing .

The flip side is a burnt engine if it fails so a bit more effort to keep the system in good order . The level of damage when the mist stops would depend on what level of protection the WMI gave and how much detonation set in .

Protections I've read about are filters and pressure or flow sensors and switching for possibly map or boost control changes .

Controls . Some like AEM offer controllers that use manifold pressure referenced switch on/full boost points . Their alternative uses things like injector duty or MAP/MAF voltages to control pump speed .

Good engine management systems with enough outputs should offer more sophisticated strategies , Guilt would know what a Vipec can do to control WMI . Could it also switch into safe maps if the WMI system layed down ?

Since Mr Mafia built and dyno tuned his own car I'd really like to hear what his current opinion is on WMI .

More input plz , cheers Adrian .

[discopotato03]

I honestly can't remember if I ever ran the Evo from full to empty , hard keeping the battery charged these days . 99.5% drive the Skyline everywhere .

Evo uses United 100 BTW .

A .

[ARTZ]

I've been wondering alot lately if higher rail pressures would improve atomization of ethanol..and possibly lead to better economy, and better cold starts...

I've wanted to try it on mine if it didn't complete retuning...

[discopotato03]

Direction injection is the way to do that but the main issue is that production engines are primarily designed to burn unleaded petrol . To get better returns from ethanol you need higher compression ratios and probably a swag of changes to petrol burner designs . Sadly there isn't enough overall interest in high ethanol content fuels because Joe Average wants the absolute cheapest running costs - and he won't get it running E85 in a petrol spec engine - even if it is a flex fuel vehicle .

Briefly , people bring up WMI and aircraft engines from the 1940s . Before the allies got the upper hand the Brits didn't have what we would call high octane aviation fuel so they had to resort to WMI to jam higher boost into engines for higher performance . Later RR Merlins had two speed two stage superchargers on them to get sea level performance at high altitudes (for a prop job) . Later the yanks imported higher octane av gas , think it was something like 130 or 150 octane rating - possibly shit loads of TEL .

In the turbo F1 era WMI disappeared when higher octane race "fuels" became available and regulating race "fuel" was probably what had the most to do with banning turbo engines in the late 80s and 1990s . More octane more boost more power .

A .

[scotty nm35]

WMI... You know the Germans were running the superior "synthetic" fuels...

[Rolls]

The biggest worry with WMI is if it fails and you have no fail safes kaboom goes the engine, you need a float in the meth tank that will kick the ECU into a secondary "no WMI" map should it fail, coupling this with knock sensors would be the only fool proof system as there really is no easy way to know if the pump/injector has failed.

I've never played with the newer vipec/adaptronic ECUs but do they allow you to set up secondary maps with a bunch of conditions that will trigger it eg an auxillary digital output (float in the tank) or an analog signal greater than a threshold (external knock detecting circuit) ? I would imagine the higher end ECUs have something like this however once you do this properly the solution really is getting quite expensive and makes me wonder if simplicity is not a better option.

I would not be comfortable utilising the benefits of WMI without something like this, it really isn't that hard to imagine you empty out your meth tank due to a leak and not realise before it is too late.

I mean with the extra torque you get from extra ignition timing, is the money spent on engineering this solution not just better spent on a bigger capacity engine? I am a big fan of simplicity, too many things that can go wrong in the engine bay already.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Rolls

[Guilt-Toy]

he is right... the system is not something that you really want to lean on to ensure your engine does not destroy itself.

it does not take much for it to fail without you knowing. I always do a test while on the dyno with wmi systems to make sure the system is working and i explain to every customer how important the system is for the life of their engine and how to keep the system running and how to test it also.

If you are on the ball you should be able to notice the system has failed on how the engine runs / sounds without it working.

[sky30]

The aquamist system has a fail safe trigger to send a signal to the ecu, it incorporates a tank level sensor and a water flow sensor. Once set up the flow sensor will trigger fail safe if the flow is higher or lower than normal due to either a leak (flow would be high) or blocked nozzle (flow be low).

[jet_r31]

I have a flow gauge on my pump system, i check it same as i check a boost gauge under initial throttle.

In 12,000km, havnt had a blocked nozzle with a 40 micron filter.

you can hook a flow gauge up to most ECU's and have it switch to the knock map if it doesn't sense flow

With a pneumatic system, i never check anything,(except for hose clamps) f**kall can fail really, a solenoid to switch it on or a hobbs

pressure switch, is all that can fail, no motors and no 250psi pressure like a pump system, just whatever your

boost is

One day im going to put my airflow meter in cooler pipe and convert the daily stagea to pneumatic, and then just keep

the pump system for my race/street car to use a 120cc jet pre-turbo ontop of the E85, just for lower AIT's up top of track

cheers

darren

Edited December 1, 2013 by jet_r31

[sky30]

How far away is the 31 from hitting the track darren? Be good to see it out there

[jet_r31]

don't know, don't really care, ive started doing my ke10 corolla atm, im getting that going first, 4agze, hypergear Td06-20g,

supra w series, hilux., not sure if i want to run E85, or a pneumatic WMI setup on that atm

cheers

darren

[sky30]

Is that the same rolla u had years ago darren?

[jet_r31]

yep, had it for 13 ish yrs..my kids and wife want me to get it going so they can drive it to school ,hence doing it first

cheers

darren