Car Cannot Take Timing

[blah_blah]

So to summarize - It won't take timing, but WILL hold boost but refuses to take timing as the revs climb? Does it take less timing the higher the RPM it's getting? Is it simply not making power because feeding the appropriate amount of timing into it will result in ping city?

How much timing does 8-10 degrees get you anyway?

Correct

On a Hypergear ss2 turbo (3076 equivalent) It was revved out till redline and made 280rwkw. There was more in it at the top end but couldn't put anymore timing into it as it would ping.

Newer turbo it was only revved out till about 4,500 to 5,000 rpm before the tuner felt it wasn't safe to go any further. Can't put any timing in it otherwise it would ping.

Tuner said the car is running as if it was on a really low octane fuel

This is a dyno graph of when I had the ss2.

Blue line - New setup with the timing issue, Stopped making power at 5-6krpm as no timing able to be put in

Green line - old stock motor with ss2 before the motor blew

[Chris32]

Your intercooler isn't full of oil from the last engine's demise is it?

[Super Drager]

Only things i can think of, really heavy duty valve springs can cause problems with timing. The tuning may also be a problem in itself, you mention timing being put in.....is that during the 98RON tune? Try low boost and aggressive timing and work up from there.

[meatball]

If i remember rightly i had the same issue with my car, im only running a r33 highflow but it hit the wall at about 200kw and wouldn't take any timing without pinging its head off, could handle 16psi + but wouldn't make any more power

[r32-25t]

What heat range plugs are you running?

[hypergear]

Want to swap your car with mine? Drive off with 490rwkws not cent needs to be send on.

Few years a ago I remembered a customer had similar issue and it turned out to be two teeth out on the cam belt.

I've also seen some interesting and strange results with those cheap NZ manifolds. It might be some thing to look at by trailing using factory exhaust manifold.

[GTScotT]

Borrow a standard 600x300 core from someone and hook it up outside of the car. Yep just literally hang it out the bonnet with some long ass pipes.

I'll give you my EFT details when you're ready.

[blah_blah]

Your intercooler isn't full of oil from the last engine's demise is it?

Intercooler pipes showed no signs of oil

Only things i can think of, really heavy duty valve springs can cause problems with timing. The tuning may also be a problem in itself, you mention timing being put in.....is that during the 98RON tune? Try low boost and aggressive timing and work up from there.

22psi actuator on the turbo lol

Timing issue on both 98 & e85

If i remember rightly i had the same issue with my car, im only running a r33 highflow but it hit the wall at about 200kw and wouldn't take any timing without pinging its head off, could handle 16psi + but wouldn't make any more power

Did you end up resolving it?

What heat range plugs are you running?

I was running bcp7res gapped to 0.8

Tuner changed and put in new plugs i think, made no difference though

Want to swap your car with mine? Drive off with 490rwkws not cent needs to be send on.

Few years a ago I remembered a customer had similar issue and it turned out to be two teeth out on the cam belt.

Cam timing was checked on the dyno and was spot on

490rwkw too much for me Stao

[blah_blah]

Borrow a standard 600x300 core from someone and hook it up outside of the car. Yep just literally hang it out the bonnet with some long ass pipes.

I'll give you my EFT details when you're ready.

Shagged intercooler aye...

What's your theory behind this, as it's not exactly an easy diagnostic exercise lol

[Kinkstaah]

I'd wager the theory is intake heat causing pinging.. the issue is crazy pinging when it shouldn't be, I believe a few people on page 1 were mentioning IAT as well as a likely potential cause.

Seeing the two dyno sheets with different turbos almost being exactly the same, for the same reason (ping city) would also encourage something intakey.. and the intake hasn't changed and neither has the problem

[GTScotT]

LOL it's not shagged, its a return flow.

Theory isn't theory at all, its a collective of data over the years thanks to this forum (and others). Most return flow kits hamper flow above the 250rwkw mark. It won't take the timing because the design of the core and piping adds too much heat to the charge before it gets to the motor.

This will be really unconventional but you should have plenty of access to enough pipes, joiners and bends to just rig up a random cooler in front of the car, even off to the side. Am betting you will see major gains.

IF this fails, and that is IF, I would turn to the cam timing as suggested... However it is easier to run some 2.5" pipe around the place than it is to rip apart a motor. SO try my theory first.

[Josh080691]

I had this issue after my tune the thought my timing was spot on too but found out it was out a couple teeth throwing timing top end but thats my 2c

[blah_blah]

I'd wager the theory is intake heat causing pinging.. the issue is crazy pinging when it shouldn't be, I believe a few people on page 1 were mentioning IAT as well as a likely potential cause.

Seeing the two dyno sheets with different turbos almost being exactly the same, for the same reason (ping city) would also encourage something intakey.. and the intake hasn't changed and neither has the problem

I will add this to the list

LOL it's not shagged, its a return flow.

Theory isn't theory at all, its a collective of data over the years thanks to this forum (and others). Most return flow kits hamper flow above the 250rwkw mark. It won't take the timing because the design of the core and piping adds too much heat to the charge before it gets to the motor.

This will be really unconventional but you should have plenty of access to enough pipes, joiners and bends to just rig up a random cooler in front of the car, even off to the side. Am betting you will see major gains.

IF this fails, and that is IF, I would turn to the cam timing as suggested... However it is easier to run some 2.5" pipe around the place than it is to rip apart a motor. SO try my theory first.

I will take this information on board

I think I remember a few return flows that have made a shit load of power. Though it was the Greddy kits. Mine is a HDI intercooler

I also remember asking the Tuner this in a previous turn and he didn't think it was an issue, and the return piping on the outlet of the intercooler wasn't hot

Scotty did my intake piping so he can throw in his 2 cents

Also I believe my intercooler is a "normal" intercooler with just custom piping to make it return flow. This was already on the car when I bought it. Heres a pic for reference

In addition why was the intercooler not a restriction when I made 280rwkw on the stock setup but now it is on the same turbo on a built motor? (refer back to back dyno graph on the Ss2)

Cam timing is spot on

This has been double checked by the engine builder and tuner when it was on the dyno.

I had this issue after my tune the thought my timing was spot on too but found out it was out a couple teeth throwing timing top end but thats my 2c

Per above Cam timing has been double checked by the engine builder and tuner and is spot on

[Aggroman]

I will have a blitz return flow you can borrow for testing purposes in approx a weeks time.. just use your own piping

[Aggroman]

oh ur vic, that might be costly to ship back and forth for testing

[89CAL]

Going with the High IAT temps, Was there high ambient temps on the day and how long had it been on the dyno? (I'm sure you said it was being dyno tuned lol.....)

Just asking because of all the hot weather Vic has had of late, might be cooking in a shed. It's a pretty obvious one so probably not the issue, but just in case noone had thought of it

Can you log the timing to see if its acting normal (apart from being low)?

[blah_blah]

oh ur vic, that might be costly to ship back and forth for testing

Yeah interstate. Thanks for the offer anyway David

Going with the High IAT temps, Was there high ambient temps on the day and how long had it been on the dyno? (I'm sure you said it was being dyno tuned lol.....)

Just asking because of all the hot weather Vic has had of late, might be cooking in a shed. It's a pretty obvious one so probably not the issue, but just in case noone had thought of it

Can you log the timing to see if its acting normal (apart from being low)?

Yeah VIC has been really hot. First tune was last year around winter time and the most recent one was on a cool mid 20's day

Don't think ill be able to get the timing information for you. Tuner is always flat out, so don't want to really pester him with any additional questions

[GTSBoy]

You could get a garden hose with mist nozzle to spray onto the cooler during a run. You can put a lot of water on that way and keep the core very cold.

If you were to do this, you would definitely be wanting to monitor the intake temps. Simply putting a bare thermocouple onto the outside of the hot and cold pipes and wrapping with a rag will give you a good guide to the air temp within (and you need a multimeter or TC handheld). I know you say the cooler return pipe was cool to the touch when run before....but if you want to go hunting further then this is an option to pursue.

I would look at measuring the suction in front of the turbo, just in case the inlet turns out to be restrictive (collapsing, whatever). A 10 kPa Magnahelic dP gauge would do that job (if it's sucking more than 10kPa negative then it's very bad indeed!).

A 300 kPa pressure gauge for measuring ex manifold pressure.

The 10 kPa dP gauge could be useful for measuring the pressure drop across the intercooler.

To summarise all that, people are concerned about a number of things. Hot inlet air being the main one. You could get hot inlet air from a bad cooler, from turbo inlet being too restrictive, from intercooler or pipework being too restrictive, from turbo hot side being too restrictive. That last one might be more about reversion contaminating otherwise clean and cold inlet mix in the cylinder rather than directly making hot air before the engine.

[GTScotT]

That U bend doesn't look too bad, however I can't help but keep eyeing the cooler.

Everything else sounds spot on. Try doing some tests per the above, and try another core if its possible.

[blind_elk]

When I had my RB25DET dynoed, it would ping its brains out, and no amount of timing would solve it. Then the dyno owner (not the operator) commented that RBs need FUEL to prevent detonation.