Too 20G, Or Not Too 20G, That Is The Question

[s213b]

After spending 3 hours on the kando thread and still not finding my answer I'm going to have to ask to be spoon fed. My apologies.

I've been thrown off the idea of a hypergear turbo by my tuner (and partly the price) and am curious about the kinugawa td06's.

I'm after a responsive 300/330awkw with 20psi before 4000rpm, the earlier the better.

Car is fresh forged rb25det in 32 gts4 with 256 poncams and e85 + all supporting mods. I'm after internal wastegate and will be on std manifold (however will upgrade - doubt it'll flow 300awkw+)

Can't decide between the td06 20g 10cm and the td06 25g 8cm. Will the 8cm fall over in the top end? And will the 10cm make my power goals?

Cheers

[petero'nell]

For internally bolton turbos hypergear's are much better. This sort of power should be easily archived with their current high flow, which doesn't cost more then the 20g either.

[Mick_o]

I made 336kw on a GTX3071R full boost under 4K power delivery was very aggressive all on internal gate stock manifold.. Mate of mine just picked 1 up for $970 recently so they are becoming cheap enough now too.. If I had another 25 id do the same thing again

[petero'nell]

E85? Nothing bolt on apart from T3x manifold tho.

[Mick_o]

Yes E85 & of course all the supporting mods. Stock camshafts etc basic bolt on package with custom exhaust and my custom pipework that was all

[hypergear]

I guess it is up to the limitation of what factory exhaust manifold can flow.

How ever I think I can match or beat your result of 336rwkws by high flowing a standard R33 turbocharger using factory housings internally gated with better response perhaps. Can't stop trying harder for new heights

[Guilt-Toy]

I guess it is up to the limitation of what factory exhaust manifold can flow.

How ever I think I can match or beat your result of 336rwkws by high flowing a standard R33 turbocharger using factory housings internally gated with better response perhaps. Can't stop trying harder for new heights

yeah but what is the price? those kando things are going for 750 or something on fleebay.

I am just about to buy one myself.

[Mick_o]

Oh I don't doubt ya Mr hypergear

[s213b]

I made 336kw on a GTX3071R full boost under 4K power delivery was very aggressive all on internal gate stock manifold.. Mate of mine just picked 1 up for $970 recently so they are becoming cheap enough now too.. If I had another 25 id do the same thing again

I've only ever seen the gtx30 series turbos internally gated for around $1800 and up?

Plus there's the hassle of oil/water/dump pipe

For internally bolton turbos hypergear's are much better. This sort of power should be easily archived with their current high flow, which doesn't cost more then the 20g either.

My tuner didnt sound like a fan of hypergear (unfortunate- Stao seems to know his stuff) apparently they never make as much power as their supposed too and their always laggier than other similar sized turbos. *edit sorry hyper gear

Their also $1600+

That's why the billet 3" td06sl2-20g 10cm IG that comes in 'bolt on' option for the rb25 caught my eye, being only $850-$900

Edited February 4, 2014 by s213b

[Mick_o]

Lol mate you've spent the coin on a built motor but ya wanna go cheap on the turbo? Not saying you can't get a good result from a "cheaper" turbo as there is plenty of evidence on here that says its doable... But just seems stupid to me

Spend the extra lil bit the 1st time and do it right.

Also pretty sure the IWG kandos are a steer clear. They only work properly EWG

Edited February 4, 2014 by Mick_o

[Guilt-Toy]

I've only ever seen the gtx30 series turbos internally gated for around $1800 and up?

Plus there's the hassle of oil/water/dump pipe

My tuner didnt sound like a fan of hypergear (unfortunate- Stao seems to know his stuff) apparently they never make as much power as their supposed too and their always laggier than other similar sized turbos. *edit sorry hyper gear

Their also $1600+

That's why the billet 3" td06sl2-20g 10cm IG that comes in 'bolt on' option for the rb25 caught my eye, being only $850-$900

id put my money on the hypergear lasting longer and more reliable then those td06s though.

[hypergear]

Well, the test cars wasn't built with budget in mind so it has reasonably good parts. There are many variances to consider depending on setup just like not all 3076s make 300rwkws. How ever our turbochargers are always been improved for better. Later models has better compressor / turbine efficiency, response, boost control and power to boost ratio. Many members using our turbocharger have archived expected results.

Just noticed the expected level of performance for OP is 300/330AWKWs, in which by comparing results, 4WD skylines are 12% in power behind RWD skylines. That means some thing at 370rwkws on E85. That figure is very hard to archive using stock exhaust manifold internally gated. Unless its been externally gated from the factory manifold or using a high mount setup, regardless this figure is way out of what a 20G in either external or internal gated can deliver. If it has to be a TD based turbocharger I strongly recommend our SLSS2 in 10cm or a SS2 in .82 rear, both externally gated.

In terms of our high flows, bolton turbos and other turbos might be, more specifically to Rb25det will out perform the kando items with much longer life span.

Plus we don't charge $1600+ unless you are looking at SS Alpha series. Usual high flows starts from $850 and the bolt on SS2s are for $1450 all including braided oil line.

[Lithium]

Come on guys, he has politely as possible said Hypergears have been ruled out - this feels a bit like it's heading in the direction of bullying. I'd like to think a user shouldn't have to defend their decisions, this discussion should probably be about what he's asked in the first place?

OP - Stao's comment above is very valid, I would not be targetting that power to all four wheels with the stock side mount - you made a strange statement saying you wanted stock manifold, but would be upgrading. What exactly does that mean? It's either one or the other. Also agreed with the comment that a 20G won't do it at all 4, you're definitely looking at 25G territory requirements... have a look at the first post in the Kando Dynamics thread, SimonR32 has a T67-25G which has been running for YEARS on that car, making 370+kw.

[petero'nell]

Only because Op is looking for an internally gated factory bolt on turbo. Hypergear is better in that field.

[scotty nm35]

Agreed, it won't make that power internally gated with the 20G, I would say it's just possible with an external gate setup off the manifold or housing, as long as the 10cm external housing is selected and all the supporting mods flow well.

If the OP wants a bolt on turbo, the Hypergear shits all over the Kando internal gate.

[s213b]

Lol mate you've spent the coin on a built motor but ya wanna go cheap on the turbo? Not saying you can't get a good result from a "cheaper" turbo as there is plenty of evidence on here that says its doable... But just seems stupid to me

Spend the extra lil bit the 1st time and do it right.

Also pretty sure the IWG kandos are a steer clear. They only work properly EWG

Just because I have a built motor doesn't mean I'm not working on a budget. The motor was build by a family friend when the AUD was doing very well. My forged motor cost a fraction of what the average forged motor would have cost.

Are you saying by using the kando range im not 'doing it right'? Because in the kando thread there seems to be nothing but praise for the turbos.

I'm aware there are better turbos, and I'm aware internal wastegate isn't the best, but cost is a deciding factor and if I only get 5 years out of the turbo instead of 10 (car is very rarely driven, and not tracked) for a turbo 1/3 of the price I'm happy with that. The car is streeted and regularly pulled over (common in my area) means I don't want to go external gate because if I get stickered ill have trouble in the pits with modded rb25 in my r32.

As for the manifold, I said that because the car is getting tuned at the moment with a highflow. The car will be run in with the highflow, then swapped over with something for more power when I re-do my exhaust. If the new turbo (what ever I get) makes enough power and response (even 250awkw would feel insane compared to the 150awkw the rb20 had) ill happily leave it on the std manifold.

Basically my question was will a td06sl2-20g-10cm flow enough on e85 to support 300awkw/336rwkw.

[scotty nm35]

Basically my question was will a td06sl2-20g-10cm flow enough on e85 to support 300awkw/336rwkw.

And your question has been answered...

Yes, externally gated... Just. But you would be pushing the engine hard to get that, and every other supporting mod would need to be perfect.

25G is probably the better option, as then the turbo isn't past it's efficiency.

[GTScotT]

IIRC ARTZ 20G 10cm stopped at 300rwkw? That's stock manifold, EWG and on ethanol.

I have always been a die hard SL2 20G fan but I have to agree that it does not seem up to the task you are asking. For your targets I believe you should set your 'rule of thumb' at a '300kw' turbo. That being a turbo that is known as capable of producing 300rwkw on 98.

Suggestions for achieving that result are as follows:

- Hypergear SS2 IWG or EWG

- T67 (TD06SL2 25G) EWG

- PTE 5858 EWG

- GTX3071 IWG or EWG

- GT3076 IWG or EWG

The above list is compiled in order of bang for buck.

I am not here to bully you into defying your tuner but that first option should really shine at you. Stao can produce the turbo as a full bolt on and you would only need to change the rear adapter plate (not the whole rear housing) if you wanted to convert it to external gate with 3" V band outlet. I doubt Stao would charge much at all, meaning trying the IWG stock manifold first is minimal risk in terms of $$ exposure.

I hope this helps.

[Mick_o]

Im not saying you would be doing it wrong using a kando turbo at all mate.

What im saying is whats an extra few hundred bucks in the big scheme of things when you've probably spent the best part of 10K plus on all your supporting mods and a built motor?

Then only to tune your car not get the result you were after?

Then it means turbo swaps retunes driving to and from tune shops etc which all work out a lot more expensive then spending the extra few bucks on your setup to begin with?

I understand everyone has a budget just sometimes its false economy to go slightly cheaper in the 1st place as it can work out more expensive in the long run

If the budgets tight why not wait and save a few more dollars to get a higher end product which will guarantee to deliver your result?

Again only my opinion but it seems crazy going to the effort you have with a nice built motor then not spending an extra grand on a garrett or precision turbo setup that will put the smile on your face reliably for years to come

[Guilt-Toy]

anyone know what this turbo would be good for ?

http://shopping.kinugawaturbo.com/kinugawaturbochargerbolt-on24inchesnissanskylinerb20detrb25dettd05h-16g8cm10cm-1-2-1.aspx

it has the popular 60-1 compressor which was tested here.

http://www.turbodirect.co.za/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=775&Itemid=55

^^^^

very interesting read comparing to a 6262