United Ethanol Refinery Closure?

[GTSBoy]

It's fine. Keep consuming resources at an exponentially increasing pace. That is how the capitalist system works. Right up until some critical resource is exhausted. Then it all stops suddenly.

Your "local production for local consumption" idea would be fine....if we weren't in a globalised economy that dominates all other decision making processes. 50 years ago it could have still worked. 100 years ago it was the norm. Not so much now. Now the race is on to exploit everything you can as fast as you can before someone else gets it, because now you can actually see the end of the resources that you want to exploit, whereas 50 or 100 years ago they all looked pretty will infinite.

Edited February 28, 2014 by GTSBoy

[AngryRB]

I noticed that a united servo near me in south brissy just recently has dug up the ground and installed an E85 pump and has quite a

few banners to advertise it. Seems odd to go to the trouble if E85 isn't viable in the future as a whole row of pumps were out of use

while they installed the pump and tanks in the ground.

Also, im very shitty about paying 95c/L for LPG, what a shit deal, makes LPG useless now, petrol came down after xmas

but they kept the LPG up 20c higher.

Edited February 28, 2014 by AngryRB

[discopotato03]

It's all about making money and I doubt the producers care much about the energy requirements involved in doing so .

Another issue is that some of the additives used in ULP to raise its octane are being weeded out as nasties while ethanol can boosts octane whilst not being as toxic .

[GTSBoy]

It's all about making money and I doubt the producers care much about the energy requirements involved in doing so .

Another issue is that some of the additives used in ULP to raise its octane are being weeded out as nasties while ethanol can boosts octane whilst not being as toxic .

Energy costs money. When you refine oil, you can use some of your own feedstock to provide a good chunk of the energy you need, thereby avoiding buying energy in at retail prices. When you create and distill ethanol, you have to buy a lot of energy in. That costs a LOT of money. It's silly.

[Scott Black]

For the person saying the energy cost isnto high for ethanol that's only partially true a few years back it cost more energy to make than the energy we got back from the finished product yet that has changed and we do net more energy back. It's still expensive yet atleast it's a true renewable resource now and with more investment will continue to get better

[discopotato03]

Are we talking about process energy or the cost of process energy . I highly doubt crude oil morphs itself into petroleum products and energy is intensive in the process .

Naturally oil companies don't charge themselves commercial rates for process energy and it's a certainty that transport costs to literally ship huge quantities of crude or finished products across the oceans is fuelled by oil not paid for at commercial rates .

Like anything economies of scale and efficient processes make all the difference .

[Mick_o]

Hmmmmm I actually heard that caltex were gunna be ditching eflex off a friend. Don't have any evidence to back it though

[scotty nm35]

I heard similar Mick, and seeing Holden have dropped e85... I guess there is no industry left to support.

[RBrennan25]

Yeah I heard the same unfortunately. I hope it doesn't happen because realistically once the oil runs out, there isn't much we can turn to. Batteries are stupid and will never work and harm the environment even more, and no one wants to fund hydrogen in the same was as ethanol because it would probably work and upset the oil co's

What a ridiculous world we live in

[discopotato03]

If it stops here and a market exists , money to be made , someone will import it .

I reckon I've read too much about manufacturers getting positive results in the light of ever tightening emissions regulation to see it fizzle out .

The Greens would scream and the ethanol growing segment in places like the US are a strengthening political tool .

Like has been mentioned Olden dropped the Flex Dore and with few true FF vehicles out here the E70/85 sales volume would be small .

The thing to watch will be the price because if United and Caltex think they have nothing to lose .....

[Scott Black]

Funding hydrogen is just plain f**king stupid as the energy required to break the chemical bonds that hold water together to get hydrogen is less than the energy hydrogen will produce when burnt. I'm talking about the actual energy needed at 100% efficiency, so as a fuel it's pretty pointless as it will never be scientifically possible to start with water and get hydrogen for fuel without using more energy than you will get from it.

[RBrennan25]

That's all well and good but what else have we got? We can just keep running about going 'no it'll never work get rid of it' because eventually we're going to run out and then go 'oh shit, now what?'

I can guarantee lightbulbs we use today are a lot more efficient at using energy than eddison's but we would have never got here if everyone just said 'lightbulbs are inefficient lets just use candles'

[Adriano]

Thats two different scenarios, the actual energy require to split the water is more than obtained by the burning of the hydrogen, so it would be like using a solar panel to power eddissons light bulb, then a new one and expecting it to work at night. Otherwise hydrogen power would be perpetual energy.

[r32-25t]

Ethanol should be the future, the amount of products it can be made from (including garbage) makes it the obvious choice.

We are running out of land to use as rubbish tips so why not make that rubbish useful in other ways and if the premiere australian Motorsport can see a future for the stuff why can't the government

[GTSBoy]

Ethanol should be the future, the amount of products it can be made from (including garbage) makes it the obvious choice.

We are running out of land to use as rubbish tips so why not make that rubbish useful in other ways and if the premiere australian Motorsport can see a future for the stuff why can't the government

Nice in theory. Just do some sums first look into how many barrels of oil are squeezed out of the ground, processed and burnt each year. Then have a look at the volume of ethanol produced (for the same purposes, ie fuel). See the ratio? It's almost infinity. Now look at the size of an ethanol plant and the size of an oil refinery, and think about how much industrial complex you have to build to replace oil. It kind of sucks. It would be nice if it were otherwise.

Do not get me wrong. I think the wholesale destruction of every last drop of oil on the planet is a silly thing to do. I just don't think that ethanol is the sensible choice. Hydrogen makes a lot more sense, even with its various problems. The reason? You can make it from water and electricity, and there are already various environmentally friendly ways to get electricity, and there will be more in the future. Ethanol relies on agriculture, and agriculture is going to have increasing problems as climate change starts moving rainfall patterns around.

[niZmO_Man]

Ethanol relies on agriculture

This.