M35 Turbo Upgrade.

[stripey]

trying to find the math on flow through certain sized pipes cant seem to find anything specific to idea. in the instance of a 3" pipe could you heat and flatten pipe to make it fit in tight spaces. would it still have same flow and still have same volume ?

edit just found this

http://www.partsshopmax.com/page.php?44

and this

http://www.stainlessheaders.com/oval_exhaust_tubing

Edited January 21, 2016 by stripey

[BoostdR]

Laminar flow would be disrupted causing an overall reduction. % wise I'm not sure

[Daleo]

trying to find the math on flow through certain sized pipes cant seem to find anything specific to idea. in the instance of a 3" pipe could you heat and flatten pipe to make it fit in tight spaces. would it still have same flow and still have same volume ?

edit just found this

http://www.partsshopmax.com/page.php?44

&&0){for(var>

and this

http://www.stainlessheaders.com/oval_exhaust_tubing

You can, but you'd be better off using 2.5" pipe; then splitting it and adding flat plate to the gap; not unlike what Scotty does with his dump pipes; to get some extra cross sectional area.

[scotty nm35]

You can, but you'd be better off using 2.5" pipe; then splitting it and adding flat plate to the gap; not unlike what Scotty does with his dump pipes; to get some extra cross sectional area.

Or rolling/clamping flat stainless in a jig which is what I would like to do. Then there is only one weld not four.

[BoostdR]

Unfortunately due to the very average Australian vs US dollar my Indy car Borg Warner turbo purchase fell through. I'll have to keep that experience to my race car. As fait my have it however. While I was in Melbourne on holidays I went to visit Tao at Hypergear. We discussed the downfalls of my Rev 4 turbo. Kudos to Tao who in person was very humble and agreed to continue to evolve the high power end of development for the M35 Stagea. From my logs and experience with the Rev 4 we have decided on a development version for me to test. My turbo is in the mail as I speak. Plans to bypass the previous issues of low boost and too much turbine flow are as follows below. As a side influence the turbo may also produce more power. I should state in 3rd gear at 26-28psi the Rev 4 was sensational. Acceleration to the point my exhaust would scrape on the ground.

Development design:

Change small diameter turbine heat shield to large which increases flow directed onto the turbine tips rather than under causing interference and wasting energy. Aim is to increase spool an upper boost capacity.

Change the compressor from a low blade SS2 to a high blade SS2. This will create more flow/boost at the same turbine speeds. It may increase spool however more torque from the turbine is required to spin it so will have to wait and see.

The bearings will be changed from bush to hybrid combination dual german ceramic ball bearings(yes German not Chinese) with a bush bearing style thrust plate. This ensures reliability at high shaft speeds whilst also realising some of the CBB spool benefits. The turbine shaft will be machined down to allow the CBB's to be fitted which will reduce rotational mass. Being close to the centre of the mass spool benefit will be minimal however some benefit will be realised.

The wastegate will have the new heavy duty actuator installed which is capable of high arm angles whilst resisting the increased pressure from the oversized puck.

The intake will be tapered down from a 3" bolt on adaptor to compressor rather than being 90degrees.

Intake pipe is 3" to 3.15"

I feel a little of development and experience from everyone contributing to this thread is reflected in this. I'll update results with lots of comparative graphs when available.

PS I have a spare engine and two spare gearboxes ready to go

PPS is it just me or has the price of M35's gone up in the last few months..

Matt

Hypergear Rev4 0-100 4.# seconds http://youtu.be/vZGUFzqHFRI

Edited February 2, 2016 by BoostdR

[hypergear]

First of all thank Matt for the opportunity to trail this particular build, we will be using the larger ATR43SS2 CBB profile made for RB25det engines in OEM housings, while further measures working with heavy thrust load on high boost.

Making an performance high flow that suit majority of engines, we can't have it running base pressure of 30psi, lots of conventional efforts has been adapted getting a stable boost pressure of 18 to 20psi.

Ceramic ball bearing system provides superior throttle response, the car picks up and move on very light throttle on or off boost, this is some thing that traditional bush bearing assembly can not provide. On the same time due to the nature of the bearing assembly they requires very little oil to run, means there is no need to modify a good working OEM oil supply system.

There are limitations and unknown factors for this evaluation, hopefully we can see some good numbers.

[scotty nm35]

There are glaring and obvious reasons for the failures of the bush cores you designed, highlighted by the fact everyone I take the SS2 to can't control their laughter. (mind you I only wanted to find the source of the noise and balance it so I could sell it on.)

The wear on the thrust assembly after a few hundred K's is substantial, and I can only recommend anyone using your bush core limits the boost to under 20 psi, at least until the thrust assembly is looked at by a reputable turbo builder. Quite happy to post pics if you like. This also explains why the rear bush didn't receive enough oil, and why most of the failures have likely occurred. Shame on you for making me do all this fault tracing on my own Tao, you should have warranted your work in the first place and worked out these issues yourself.

I just hope your Rev 25 BB core is of better design. I can't be recommending any Hypergear highflow anymore due to these apparently simple to remedy design flaws which cost me my sanity and more spanner time than I would like to remember.

As for numbers, you have some catching up to do...

[Jetwreck]

Guys I just want to be clear on this. Are you guys just chasing numbers? If so what about the guys that simply just want to go to a high flow setup and have no aspirations of putting an EMU(or similar) on.

In other words are these developed turbo's going to be a laggy pos with no tune and below 18psi?

Edited February 4, 2016 by Jetwreck

[BoostdR]

I think Tao is talking about previous big comp wheeled turbos with small turbine which struggle to bleed exhaust pressure. He does do a Garrett core small high flow that does work with the OEM ecu and controls boost to 9psi with OEM response.

I tested my Bush bearings after I removed my turbo and was pleased to find zero shaft play. I had 3mm drilled banjo's and an oversized rb25 oil return.

As for chasing numbers. Yes I want numbers under the curve. And more boost in low gear. Happy to keep the same up top. My Rev4 made 16psi in 1st, 21psi in 2nd and 26psi in 3rd with the wastegate fully closed. The design I expressed above is aimed at giving more flow at the same shaft speed and more energy to the turbine to try to mitigate the previous low boost issues. With the gate fully open 5psi-7psi was max so that's promising.

It may not work at all, who knows. I've accepted the liability and will post results for everyone's benefit.

Matt

I think this is the little high flow with Garrett core

Hmmn seems my pics aren't coming up...

Edited February 4, 2016 by BoostdR

[hypergear]

For a VQ turbo discussion I'm pretty open about it.

They all Bronze bearings and steel collars there isn't much of ways around those.

Because VQ25 engines doesn't seems to be pumping as much oil flow compare to RB or SR engines, so for T3 bush assembly to work it needs the thrust assembly to be bolted down and an small oil restrictor fitted just under the thrust bearing feed plus a angled tapper on the journal, that solves the oil delivery issues. But far as I know majority of the early high flows I've done are still working fine with all oil restrictors drilled out.

On the thrust side, I found with the VQ25, on high boost, the thrust wear is normally under the comp wheel, this is due to the limitation of comp housing as well as the inlet manifold and cams. Which turns out opposite to other inline engines.

To solve all above problems, its just best going ball bearing, and I'm using Genuine Garrett CHRAs on all of the M35 high flows that I currently do,

With high power, due to turbine housing design there is no boost control internally gated, I'm controlling it with compressor wheel size. I won't be getting much more power at given boost level. However I'm using an larger wheel on this one of high flow.

[scotty nm35]

For a VQ turbo discussion I'm pretty open about it.

They all Bronze bearings and steel collars there isn't much of ways around those.

Because VQ25 engines doesn't seems to be pumping as much oil flow compare to RB or SR engines, so for T3 bush assembly to work it needs the thrust assembly to be bolted down and an small oil restrictor fitted just under the thrust bearing feed plus a angled tapper on the journal, that solves the oil delivery issues. But far as I know majority of the early high flows I've done are still working fine with all oil restrictors drilled out.

On the thrust side, I found with the VQ25, on high boost, the thrust wear is normally under the comp wheel, this is due to the limitation of comp housing as well as the inlet manifold and cams. Which turns out opposite to other inline engines.

To solve all above problems, its just best going ball bearing, and I'm using Genuine Garrett CHRAs on all of the M35 high flows that I currently do,

With high power, due to turbine housing design there is no boost control internally gated, I'm controlling it with compressor wheel size. I won't be getting much more power at given boost level. However I'm using an larger wheel on this one of high flow.

So you know the 360 degree thrust bearing needs to be bolted down, (and mind you your knockoff thrust has the holes in it already to enable this easily) and yet you failed to do this, even though you knew the oil flow to be a problem? Was this a simple cost cutting exercise at our expense? I paid for a turbo that I could push hard, this is definitely not the case.

Why didn't you mention this when I was bringing blown turbo's to you asking for an answer to these issues? The Intense highflow has no wear problems, so essentially the failures were due to you failing to tap three small threads into your core.

The way you trial and design turbo's is plain wrong, and relies on the customer to cover any flaws in your design. I won't be fitting any Hypergear turbo until I can see that the quality has improved for myself.

[hypergear]

There are many ways of firmly hold the thrust plate to the bearing housing. Method mentioned above can be used when working with sump oil restrictor, how ever it can no work along without alterations to bearings and bearing housing. Oil restrictor was not mentioned by you during our initial development. Hence the later announcement about the sump oil restictor.

The thrust wear I found was under the opposite side, which has nothing to do with the how its been held. I think check your intense r after few thunsand Ks for Thrust wear.

2ndly, I was never asked to build a turbo that boost spikes to 34psi. I was asked to build a turbo to maintain a minimum boost pressure of under 20psi that is boost control able. I'll only be engineering turbos for M35s that holds minimum boost of 20psi and below as a sell able product.

After all we don't live in history. All my current retail versions of M35 highflows runs off genuine Garrett CBB centers. That provides superior throttle and boost response without having to alter factory oil delivery systems.

[Beregron]

ok so... as a fairly disapointed Hypergear SS2 (pre any revisions) owner who simply wants a something that will not be a terrible laggy mess like the turbo i have now what would be my current options?

Obviously i need my tune looked at (Emanage) and perhaps this will help things but reading what Matt is saying with his revised SS2 more development is sorely needed.

I'll be watching this thread closely as my car will be back tomorrow with new exhaust sorted.... I really need to move on to tuning / turbo choices now.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Beregron

[Daleo]

ok so... as a fairly disapointed Hypergear SS2 (pre any revisions) owner who simply wants a something that will not be a terrible laggy mess like the turbo i have now what would be my current options?

Obviously i need my tune looked at (Emanage) and perhaps this will help things but reading what Matt is saying with his revised SS2 more development is sorely needed.

I'll be watching this thread closely as my car will be back tomorrow with new exhaust sorted.... I really need to move on to tuning / turbo choices now.

Get hold of the highflow built by Rick, that Scotty is using now; that thing is a monster, and seems to have no downside at all.

[Beregron]

Get hold of the highflow built by Rick, that Scotty is using now; that thing is a monster, and seems to have no downside at all.

Cheers Dale.

I have a feeling i'll need to eventually swap out to another ECU due to the limitations of the emanage but there is still so much for me to gain before i get there

[Intense m35]

Even though the results of the intense billet rs speak for them selves, and with it also being in scottys own personal car which has put it through its paces, it's had nothing but success.

P.S when we release its successor in the near future, it will end all debates ?

[BoostdR]

The intense RS has over boost issues I was told by Scotty.

[scotty nm35]

The intense RS has over boost issues I was told by Scotty.

No, my setup is overboosting, unfortunately I only have a 3 bar sensor which means I need to keep the boost under 28psi. Using these heavy spring actuators and a stock housing that's way too restrictive, the exhaust gas at that power can't bypass around the turbine fast enough, meaning the shaft overspeeds. At normal power levels the wastegate flows just fine. Just a simple drawback of highflow internal gate turbo's. Tao controls this using the wheel sizes, but it is subject to change depending on flow obviously. To me this just shows how efficient the compressor wheel is, and seeing the boost isn't dropping off, it likely has a lot more to give.

Seeing I want to run more boost, the lack of wastegate flow isn't much of an issue, the map sensor is. I was hoping to fit a 4 bar sensor, but that would mean remapping the fuel table, which would be added tuning time I can't afford. I have a Link to tune soon...

[Beregron]

This is the reason i'll just wait to see results if people are willing to post them.

It's my only issue with forums in that its hard to separate fact from opinion. With my manual conversion I was happy to work with the mechanic and give proper results and a sort of guide once complete as it may help others out.

I'll have a look at the intense turbo results again next week sometime as progress needs to be made by myself

Cheers

[BoostdR]

ok so... as a fairly disapointed Hypergear SS2 (pre any revisions) owner who simply wants a something that will not be a terrible laggy mess like the turbo i have now what would be my current options?

Obviously i need my tune looked at (Emanage) and perhaps this will help things but reading what Matt is saying with his revised SS2 more development is sorely needed.

I'll be watching this thread closely as my car will be back tomorrow with new exhaust sorted.... I really need to move on to tuning / turbo choices now.

Looking at your tune the other day Boost Worx haven't done you any favours. Only adjusting the injector compensation and about 5 injector load points up top(which may elude to the fuel pump running out of flow) all the factory load cuts remain and a lot of low down torque can be had adjusting the timing Map. Scotty helped me out here with some pointers and my car was night and day different coming onto boost. I also suspect your old SS2 runs the OEM wastegate actuator which is way too soft causing a laggy turbo. You may also be able to make a considerable difference to your response by having the the emanage tuned (with a wideband O2 for autotune) and a spring fitted to the waste gate. A HPX-N2 MAF insert is next on my list and I feel a better option than a MAP sensor as there is no stable signal from the little plenum. As I mentioned when we met. I'm happy to help you out. As others have done for me from this forum Edited February 5, 2016 by BoostdR