R32 Refusing To Start

[blind_elk]

My R32 GTS4 - RB25DET + Wolf 3D 4+ - has developed a problem in that it is unpredictable whether it will cold start, even with a jump start. Battery (Super Charge 40B20, 380 CCA - I think it was from Autobarn) is only about 12 months old.

Trying it this morning, had my Pathfinder on jumper leads. It will turn over, but somehow loses voltage to the starter motor, and just stops turning. Watching the Wolf handset, the duty cycle jumps all over the place, even going to 100% duty cycle at less than 100 rpm. Battery voltage starts at 13 - 14V, then drops as low as 7V when trying to crank. When it does start, it will crank then almost stop, like its hit a compression lock, then start cranking again.

I've tried tightening the power cable to the starter. I have installed an extra new heavy duty earth strap from the thermostat housing to the battery. I have replaced both factory battery terminals with solid brass ones. Sometimes (particularly on low battery) I just get the starter solenoid clicking in / out, but no starter. Multimeter says there is 0 resistance between block and battery -ve. Also, there is full voltage at the starter motor, and 0 resistance through that cable. I accidentally supplied power direct to the starter side of the starter solenoid, and the starter spun freely.

I'm really stumped. Any help / advice graciously received. I'm wondering if the starter motor needs an overhaul(?)

I have several videos on my phone of the Wolf handset while starting - just need to figure out how to upload them so you can see what its doing.

[sleptema]

There is certainly a possibility of the starter needing an overhaul, an internal short will make it draw excessively from the battery.

What you need to know is that once the battery voltage drops below 9-8V, it is very unlikely your car will start as the coils won't be able to spark properly, the computer may shut off or not be able to interpret readings from sensors and what not.

The issue could be a number of things, and you will basically have to eliminate them. What I can think of:

Battery: Check for 12.6v with car off. If it is less than 12.0v, you need to place it on charge. Put in on low amps for 2 hours, disconnect, wait 5 minutes, and see if it is holding 12.6v. If it isn't, your battery is on its way out or cactus.

When you are cranking (has to be cranking or key in start [so even if it isn't cranking, it is attempting to]), get your multimetre on battery, check voltage. ON the battery posts, not on the lugs or on the wires, ON the post. Then, check it at the starter, on the positive motor wire and earth lead or housing of the starter. The difference between these 2 values is volt drop across terminals/cabling/connections/etc. So if your battery is 10.1v, and the starter is 9.1v, somewhere between both you are losing 1 volt. Factory standards allow .5v volt drop, but realistically there should be much much less. If there is a volt drop post here and I will assist you in finding it.

The *crank* *compression lock* *crank* sounds like an old dying battery to me. Open up the caps on the battery and check the fluid levels inside. Careful, it's corrosive. Just make sure the fluid is translucent and covering all the plates.

When you are jumping, make sure both cars are off when you put the jumper leads on, follow dead battery -, good battery -, good battery +, bad battery positive. Leave for a minute to let the charge level out, start your pathfinder, let it idle for a minute to charge the bad battery, and read the bad battery with a voltmetre and see if it is receiving the charge from the pathfinder (say 13.5v at low idle). If your leads aren't heavy duty, watch out for the cables getting hot.

I would also check for all the earthing cables intact. Battery > chassis, chassis > engine block, etc. Make sure they are all clean unpainted surfaces, and no green death/corrosion.

The solenoid clicking in and out (machine gunning) is text book dying battery. As the solenoid kicks in, it engages the starter, drawing current, and dropping voltage, making the solenoid click out, and as soon as it is out, battery voltage raises and the cycle repeats.

Go forth my son, and test, test away! Hope I helped.

Edited June 15, 2014 by sleptema

[jiffo]

Can you elaborate on your comment, "I accidentally supplied power to the starter side of the solenoid"?

IF the starter was installed on the car,

AND you supplied power to the starter side,

AND it cranked over fine…….

THEN the solenoid is your problem. (as you've by-passed it in that test)

Solenoid is often overlooked when trouble shooting starter motor faults.

Continual use with a poorly charged (or low output battery) arcs the contacts in the solenoid.

Solenoid can be dismantled and successfully repaired, but most designs will need the coil wires de-soldering.

[blind_elk]

Thanks for the info.

The car has been "off" now for about 4-5 hours, 12.4V across the terminals. The battery is a sealed unit, but it has a "condition" window which indicates that the battery is ok. I'm confident the battery has 13.5V from the Pathfinder, but just can't keep 13.5V while the engine cranks over.

jiffo, I had the main cable to the starter off; as I was replacing it, I moved it a bit too far inwards and contacted the other side of the solenoid, causing the main shaft to get power. The solenoid is fine - it will always throw at "start" - it simply clicks in / out / in / out when the battery really drops in available volts. Also, the solenoid is on a relay so it gets full battery +12V at START.

The annoying thing is that it started fine on its own yesterday, but not today. It wouldn't start Wednesday night before last, but started fine last Sunday morning. It also doesn't seem to matter if the battery has been on trickle charge or not.

I guess its possible the battery is a bit cactus - despite its condition window saying its ok - because before I replaced the battery terminals I used to have even worse problems. I nearly always had to jump start the car because the +ve terminal had split its lower ring. But I would expect it to start every time with a jump start - but it won't.

[blind_elk]

Just tried another test:

Jumping off the Pathfinder, my battery has 13.5V at the posts. Then on START, it drops to 9V, maybe even 7V.

Anyway, my local Autobarn has agreed to get the battery tested by the manufacturer.

FWIW, the "condition" indicator seems to be a load of marketing BS, doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[jiffo]

You didn't answer the question though.

Did it crank over properly when you inadvertently supplied power to the wrong side of the solenoid?

The solenoid doesn't just throw the pinion into mesh, it also switches the high amperage current to the starter at the same time.

So you can have a situation where the pinion is thrown into mesh but the high amperage contacts at the end of the solenoid may be cooked from previous arcing.

Just a thought.

From lots of starter repairs over the years, I always go the extra and overhaul the solenoid, replacing the contact section if it shows well arced contacts.

[blind_elk]

jiffo, pretty sure you can only supply power to one side of the solenoid; the other side earths through the body, so maybe my bad in describing it as such.

The engine didn't turn over because I didn't activate the solenoid. I effectively bypassed the solenoid by touching the main power cable to the other 8mm connection (the "switched" side) on the starter motor, causing the armature to turn (as it would under a "normal" start operation).

[jiffo]

Not to worry, here's some extra info which may help others.

On the solenoid, there's 2-large terminals.

One is your power in (from the battery) and the other is power out from the solenoid to the starter motor.

The solenoid is activated by connecting the start terminal (usually a spade connector) across to the power in.

As the solenoid is activated, its magnet pulls the plunger and via a lever, drags the pinion into mesh.

When the plunger reaches the bottom of the solenoid, it hits spring loaded high amperage contacts which then bridge the power from the battery across to the power out to the starter, and things start to turn.

With a low battery, the magnet will pull the pinion into mesh but as soon as it bridges the high amp circuit, there's insufficient battery grunt to hold the magnet in, so it releases.

Electric load is gone so magnet comes good again, and so on…….clack, clack, clack.

Every time it clacks, it's arcing the high amp contacts.

Doesn't take long before they're melted bits of copper.

Some of us are old enough to remember rubbish like Lucas starters with no throw in solenoid. (early Minis etc)

The starter motor just spun and the inertia was sufficient to wind the Bendix into mesh with the flywheel.

[sleptema]

  On 15/06/2014 at 8:38 AM, jiffo said:

Not to worry, here's some extra info which may help others.

On the solenoid, there's 2-large terminals.

One is your power in (from the battery) and the other is power out from the solenoid to the starter motor.

The solenoid is activated by connecting the start terminal (usually a spade connector) across to the power in.

As the solenoid is activated, its magnet pulls the plunger and via a lever, drags the pinion into mesh.

When the plunger reaches the bottom of the solenoid, it hits spring loaded high amperage contacts which then bridge the power from the battery across to the power out to the starter, and things start to turn.

With a low battery, the magnet will pull the pinion into mesh but as soon as it bridges the high amp circuit, there's insufficient battery grunt to hold the magnet in, so it releases.

Electric load is gone so magnet comes good again, and so on…….clack, clack, clack.

Every time it clacks, it's arcing the high amp contacts.

Doesn't take long before they're melted bits of copper.

Some of us are old enough to remember rubbish like Lucas starters with no throw in solenoid. (early Minis etc)

The starter motor just spun and the inertia was sufficient to wind the Bendix into mesh with the flywheel.

^This

And when the melted bits of copper try to contact with each other, because the contacts are now melted and awful, it creates resistance and inadvertently - volt drop. That's why I asked for the volt drop test, as this will show if the solenoid contacts are shot.

[blind_elk]

I've got the battery off being load tested.

Meantime, I removed the starter motor - what a prick of a job that is! Sparky just called to advise that there is a (non-reparable) short in the armature. So time for a new starter - should make the car good for another 200k or so.

[sleptema]

  On 16/06/2014 at 7:44 AM, blind_elk said:

I've got the battery off being load tested.

Meantime, I removed the starter motor - what a prick of a job that is! Sparky just called to advise that there is a (non-reparable) short in the armature. So time for a new starter - should make the car good for another 200k or so.

Looks like you found your issue! A short in the armature would certainly make it hard to crank

[Missileman]

reminds me of my old XY ute, as soon as the engine came up to temp, the starter motor would short out, CBF fixing it so it stayed that way until It rusted away, even when 1st gear broke, I still drove it around with 2nd 3rd, 1st was only good for skids anyway...lol

[blind_elk]

Always the way, isn't it? Been chasing around all day trying to find a new starter - no-one seems to have one. Got the original back, quoted the Nissan P/N 23300 08U145 to some people. In the meantime, rang Just Jap in Sydney, ordered / paid for s/h unit.

Mere seconds after hanging up, guy from Repco calls, says he can get me brand new unit by end of week. $329 (?), which is much better than Nissan's $1G!

Guess I'll have a spare.