R32 Gtst - Track Car

[No Crust Racing]

No I don't mean actual budgets, I just mean what you were observing, in particular how each team does it. 

Was there anyone there that was basically a group of mates/not major sponsors doing well? Or are they really just there to turn laps and enjoy the experience? 

I can't see my 5-600hp (if ever completed) and shitful driving, no motorsport ABS/sequential etc, even being allowed to enter lol 

[bcozican]

thats hard to answer - but  a blanket answer is:  on a base level the answer is no - no one just with a bunch of mates having a crack are doing that well without adding layers of support etc on top

but.... also nearly every team even through to the top has an underlying bunch of mates helping run it no matter what the level was - and thats the bit I liked

thats the thing - look at open class this year - the 18 or 20 cars in that are all off chops 

even the clubsprint cars these days are just wild

[robbo_rb180]

14 minutes ago, bcozican said:

what I have gathered recently / rapidly (including myself up until about 18 mths ago) most people honestly just dont know what it takes to give it a go $ wise and application wise let alone do half OK and are very desensitised to the fact these are just not normal cars/ times/ budgets and its not just about buying this part and that and a shiney splitter and video's / incar footage makes it look way easier than it actually is 😅

^^^ This
The amount of commitment it takes to really go all in is a big step. Driver skill, car development, car prep, budget. The support from behind the scenes. 

I've had a good discussion already on what it would take to really have a proper go next year. At least 3-4 days at the track with minimum 1 day with a driver coach, a workshop support and a suspension and aero guru. 
 

6 minutes ago, ActionDan said:

No I don't mean actual budgets, I just mean what you were observing, in particular how each team does it. 

Was there anyone there that was basically a group of mates/not major sponsors doing well? Or are they really just there to turn laps and enjoy the experience? 

I can't see my 5-600hp (if ever completed) and shitful driving, no motorsport ABS/sequential etc, even being allowed to enter lol 

The SXDevelopment (in pro am) those boys have been driving and developing s chassis stuff for almost 20 years and can wheel a car. John Boston in hawkins s14 is another stand out too in open class, that car is very basic suspension and aero wise, the driver is what made that 1:29 happen.

5-600hp is more than enough, its more the aero required to do well. One of the guys I beat at King of QR went 4 seconds quicker than the winner of our class. Only difference is the amount of aero allowing to carry more speed in the corners. 
Car reliability is also key so that takes a lot of time to get right.

The winner of clubsprint did a 1:32 (good enough for 8th in open class) with what I would call a semi professional driver in a very well built car that when I looked over would have swore was an open class car last year.

[No Crust Racing]

Thanks for the insight. Trying to start working out what I do with this car once the engine gets here and I feel like I need an actual goal of what I am trying to achieve first so all of this info is very helpful

Now backto celebrating your success  

[hattori hanzo]

Alot of people dont appreciate the cost it takes to go club level racing 10 times a year. 

 

Let alone the time and effort and $ to get to WTAC makes my kippah quiver 

[No Crust Racing]

The former I've done, the latter I'm interested in learning.

 

[34GeeTeeTee]

On 07/09/2023 at 12:53 PM, hattori hanzo said:

Alot of people dont appreciate the cost it takes to go club level racing 10 times a year. 

 

Let alone the time and effort and $ to get to WTAC makes my kippah quiver 

This is very true! Most look at the event entry costs but forget about the rest, fuel, tyres, oil, towing, breakages, time off work etc... I do as much club level stuff as I can afford but WTAC is a whole other level.

It is an impressive effort to prep a car to this high level for WTAC and drag it half way across the country, costs would have been huge but also one of those bucket list things I guess? 🤔

I completely missed WTAC this year as I had my own stuff to sort, kinda bummed I missed it now as I would have loved to see this thing in action!

[bcozican]

^^ thanks and agree

Im about as honest as it gets about all this here are some comments on a few things for what they are worth, some my see this as a big lump of text, some may take something out of it. Either way I'll write some thing just because:

- Never in a million years did I think Id have a car to this level let alone spend that amount of time effort and $ for one event, but I have and did. Im just a normal guy - not even really a car kinda guy but obviously decided this will be my 'thing' for a while

- The unfortunate thing is the $ I spend just to get to compete in WTAC is what some already there or closer can either not spend or get to spend the same amount but actually on racing like tyres and track time - as Ive been told - thats the way it is suck it up or dont turn up - and thats the right attitude coz its true

- Competing at WTAC was for alot of reasons - to see where I sat actually doing it not thinking about it watching the live stream, challenging myself as a whole including getting there, organising the whole thing and everything else that goes into it as well as competing itself. I can say Ive done it, not as an ego or promo thing but to have an experience and be able to tell some good stories when Im old and cant do sh*t

- One thing that I didnt realise that would come is the enjoyment of others being there and involved that wouldnt otherwise be there or a chance to be that involved at this level

- for the first time in a long time Ive come away from an event and all it entailed pretty content overall, the effort, the result* (even though it wasnt as good as goodve been) and direction to go - this is big for me because I always have come away from others  just wanting more. Whether this is  because it was my first time or what I dont know

- I think what the above is saying is, I still want more ie: go faster, but think I now know my limits on many things but also new challenges and also, if I want, have a new direction to go / race in 

 

That being said:

I think the car as it stands is good enough to be generally competitive at a high level. With a few minor tweeks to setup,  and some seat time it should be quicker

I have been given a list of tweeks, changes, adjustments and some mods to do should I wish to advance the car a little further. I reality these are largely just adjustments, changes or additions to what I already have and it becomes my choice to do them or not

Once we started to do some proper laps we experienced some good amount of understeer - this is both a suspension and aero thing. this will be addressed.

We are maxing the injectors out. Even on the top boost run on dyno we are limiting the power. But that power is enough anyway. we havent run max power on track yet. But bigger injectors will be needed to run the car 'safer'

Brakes - the brakes did their job and did stop - but they are running at 100% as well with no real room for extra push so prob need to look at at least upgrading the rears from the little R34 gtr setup and maybe some tweeks to the front. All pending. I dont run a pedal box rather a replacement servo situation with std peals stil, so a povo pedal box, it does the job but isnt optimal. the $ has always gone somewhere else. Dont know if this will be address or not yet

We will run W.A Time attack here at the end of Nov. with very few tweeks compared to what it ran at WTAC. It is not about winning that anymore its about using it as a focus event to do the best PB time I can get

Will have a bit of a rest - decide what of the list we will attack

At this stage Id like to do WTAC again - if so it will be a case of trying to do things a little different and smarter 2nd time around - like not driving for 4 days straight and then expecting to do well at a top event on a track youve never driven before 🤪

Will try get the car and myself over earlier for some practice etc

But then again - while allocating it differently - it still comes down to time, effort and $

 

Really general stuff:

A pro driver - whether they are thrown into a car or the get to prac in the car previously seems to be about 1 to 3 secs better than a 'normal' person

Slicks proved to be at least 2 secs faster in lap times over the 050's prob a bit more

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by bcozican

[Kinkstaah]

Yea, it's turned away from what it originally was, which is bunch of mates making car go fast and really really embracing the "World" aspect of "Fastest Cars in the World".

I'd personally love the clubsprint class of WTAC ban any sponsorship decals on any of the entrants. It is _supposed_ to be a grass roots class. Either that, or have a flat out "street" class that has rules like that. It could potentially turn the whole thing on it's head and no longer have the 'glamour' of that world stage however.

I could be biased, but I swear almost all of the viewers of this event are interested in how fast cars they know at random track days go against other cars. It's always "That guy Fred has a mental [Car]" and we all know who owns these things at various track days that people actually attend. Something that someone could own, mod themselves, conceivably drive on the street.

As someone who's watched it for years, the only classes I generally care about at all, is Pro... and Clubsprint. And as you've alluded to, the cars in clubsprint nowadays really aren't even remotely close to a home built/solo built/someone's actual car that it implies it 'should' be.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Club Sprint should be:

• Street registered
• Factory ABS only
• Factory style gearboxes, no sequentials, no DCT/ZF swaps
• A/C working
• Road legal tyres
• Full interior
• No sound deadening allowed to be removed lol...
• No modified suspension pickup points

That would make it a bit more fair.

[robbo_rb180]

1 hour ago, bcozican said:

^^ thanks and agree

Will have a bit of a rest - decide what of the list we will attack

At this stage Id like to do WTAC again - if so it will be a case of trying to do things a little different and smarter 2nd time around - like not driving for 4 days straight and then expecting to do well at a top event on a track youve never driven before 🤪

Will try get the car and myself over earlier for some practice etc

But then again - while allocating it differently - it still comes down to time, effort and $

 

Really general stuff:

A pro driver - whether they are thrown into a car or the get to prac in the car previously seems to be about 1 to 3 secs better than a 'normal' person

Slicks proved to be at least 2 secs faster in lap times over the 050's prob a bit more

 

Well that sounds like I'll be seeing you there next year.
Is it worth going to the slick and developing the car around that? How much more brake do you need? is it a pad or caliper/rotor limitation?

Just now, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Club Sprint should be:

• Street registered
• Factory ABS only
• Factory style gearboxes, no sequentials, no DCT/ZF swaps
• A/C working
• Road legal tyres
• Full interior
• No sound deadening allowed to be removed lol...
• No modified suspension pickup points

That would make it a bit more fair.

 

50 minutes ago, Kinkstaah said:

Yea, it's turned away from what it originally was, which is bunch of mates making car go fast and really really embracing the "World" aspect of "Fastest Cars in the World".

I'd personally love the clubsprint class of WTAC ban any sponsorship decals on any of the entrants. It is _supposed_ to be a grass roots class. Either that, or have a flat out "street" class that has rules like that. It could potentially turn the whole thing on it's head and no longer have the 'glamour' of that world stage however.

I could be biased, but I swear almost all of the viewers of this event are interested in how fast cars they know at random track days go against other cars. It's always "That guy Fred has a mental [Car]" and we all know who owns these things at various track days that people actually attend. Something that someone could own, mod themselves, conceivably drive on the street.

As someone who's watched it for years, the only classes I generally care about at all, is Pro... and Clubsprint. And as you've alluded to, the cars in clubsprint nowadays really aren't even remotely close to a home built/solo built/someone's actual car that it implies it 'should' be.

Its a hard one as I imagine they want to see fast and well presented cars. Being a global event now the base class rules need to be a bit open especially for newer cars, a base car cost cap would be the best way to help that.
The cost of the event these days you need some financial assistance either in $$$ or product/support so sponsors being on cars is required to justify it. Maybe limiting the size of the branding is key, they do it to other tyre manufacturers that sponsor drivers.

Look up the guy that won clubsprint.... Should have been in open class by what he normally races. I would say 60% of clubsprint is still the average track guy and some only drive a few events a year. 

Again @bcozican awesome effort, you definitely have a few stories for the future.

[Kinkstaah]

Well it may be clubsprint because "clubsprint" implies semi-pro-club-racecar, but you all know what I'm getting at.

But it's not only the winning clubsprint car. At the moment you feel you need to put a livery on it, it is not a clubsprint car. You will never have a car like that do dual duties. I would put a god damned defect station at the end of pit lane for clubsprint if I could.

I also have no qualms with seeing 911's/etc/etc being in clubsprint. Old mate trying to build a 'streetable' R33 GTST going up against a 911 is what people wanna see.. some of the most interesting content for a lot of people is seeing how the new C8 goes up against the new M4 on the same tyres. It's nurburgring laptimes/lightning lap all over. People love this stuff - AND it is attainable.

But maybe it needs to be another event. But I feel this class is just absolutely not represented at all.

[bcozican]

21 minutes ago, robbo_rb180 said:

Well that sounds like I'll be seeing you there next year.
Is it worth going to the slick and developing the car around that? How much more brake do you need? is it a pad or caliper/rotor limitation?

 

nice

ive come this far now on a semi - i think a slick atm is too soon - can still maximise the 050 yet and obviously stay in open class but maybe a slick if I keep doing this for a while and see where I can get too especially in w.a

dont need heeeeappps of brake but would like a bit more for 'safer' braking which i'll then push more anyway ha. The rear is just under for the load im giving it and the rear is a rotor and caliper size issue although these old nissans are 70 / 30 f to r anyway I feel the front is doing way too much - the abs is getting a workout .

moving the front to a 380mm rotor on front vs 365mm might be margin especially given the potential additional weight etc - the caliper and pad on the front are good

[MBS206]

I'm going to throw this in here as a thought on brakes.

But if ABS is already kicking in Hella hard, you won't really be able to "brake harder" as your limiting factor is already the tyres, yeah?

I understand if the rears aren't at their limit, going a bit bigger / slightly more rear bias will help there, but going to a larger front rotor, you're just adding more brake force at the front, which is already on the limit right?

[couchboy]

1 hour ago, MBS206 said:

I'm going to throw this in here as a thought on brakes.

But if ABS is already kicking in Hella hard, you won't really be able to "brake harder" as your limiting factor is already the tyres, yeah?

I understand if the rears aren't at their limit, going a bit bigger / slightly more rear bias will help there, but going to a larger front rotor, you're just adding more brake force at the front, which is already on the limit right?

All depends what type of abs it is, if it Bosch motorsport abs it tunable and flash bit of kit.

[bcozican]

it is bosch motorsport ABS yes so very tunable

the front shows we have a little bit of margin in psi before it becomes 'over' psi but not alot

the rears cant even get close - but they being used to their max with a twin piston smaller rotor setup

doing rears and getting some more rear into it will be first step

but yes the tyre is the limit and this is now saved, tuned to its max by abs in reality

apart from all the technical stuff a real factor is I prob dont have big enough ballz or ability to push breaking much further 😅

trying to stop a 1200kg car from 265kmph + to 90kmph down a hill from the 75 mtr mark (in W.A - barbagallo ) on a semi starts to get out of my pay grade I think

the biggest stop at SMSP is similar in T2 240kmph down to 75kmph from about the 75m mark

 

the excuse book isnt out as the the brakes can do the job but its a - just - type situation

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by bcozican

[MBS206]

3 hours ago, bcozican said:

it is bosch motorsport ABS yes so very tunable

the front shows we have a little bit of margin in psi before it becomes 'over' psi but not alot

the rears cant even get close - but they being used to their max with a twin piston smaller rotor setup

doing rears and getting some more rear into it will be first step

but yes the tyre is the limit and this is now saved, tuned to its max by abs in reality

apart from all the technical stuff a real factor is I prob dont have big enough ballz or ability to push breaking much further 😅

trying to stop a 1200kg car from 265kmph + to 90kmph down a hill from the 75 mtr mark (in W.A - barbagallo ) on a semi starts to get out of my pay grade I think

the biggest stop at SMSP is similar in T2 240kmph down to 75kmph from about the 75m mark

 

the excuse book isnt out as the the brakes can do the job but its a - just - type situation

 

Sounds like someone just needs a way to get some more rear brake proportion in as step one.

 

Step two, bigger balls. 😛 ha ha ha ha ha

[bcozican]

Because build thread 👀  #content

First step in addressing some mechanical and aero understeer issues 

Some strakes for tunnels under car

Moving to using a 24mm thiccc boi whiteline rear sway. There was way too much rear roll mid and exit cnr as it was way soft and we just didnt get a chance to tune suspension with new aero additions etc so had to put up with it. Increasing spring rate to compensate will critically effect drive so a no at this point. Staying with standard front sway

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by bcozican

[bcozican]

brake harder they said... get abs they said...itll be fun they said

 

In the space of about 60 laps since putting the bosch abs in and getting proper use ive managed to bust 2 x front subframes

They are bending backwards and cracked at the end where the lca mounts and also destroying the mounting holes

This is obviously coming from the additional braking force and is a frustrating problem to have and a solution needs to be found asap

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by bcozican

[robbo_rb180]

You can weld washers around where bolts go through to strengthen there. Making a gusset on the back to triangulate it from LCA mount up to the horizontal part. Maybe even gusset the lower part of the mount to but make sure clearance for the arm to move through its range of movement.

 Are the castor boxes cracking too? may be look at all the suspension mounts as may find more stuff.

Pushing the limit and finding solutions will be interesting. I was talking with one of the key guys involved with the MCA hammerhead and he said the forces on these cars cause so many issues and limit the life span to only a few years without major structural improvements/re engineering.