Learner driver in skyline doing 205km/h?!?!

[Merli]

I prefer to call them "Watch dis bro!!!" deaths

[2BNVS]

i agree totally with Obakemono... like i iposted before im on my L's i have a skyline with over 200rwkw i got my car 2 months after i got my L's, i know my car is dangerous if i use it the wrong way, but it also helps me so much having that power...been in my mates car which is an s coupe he have come close to having so many accidents where he hasnt been able to brake in time or simply doesnt have the power to pull infront to avoid accidents, my other mates with rexies and vlt's etc i feel totally safer with them, sure they might do some silly stuff but i found that majority of the time my mate in the scoupe knew his car was slow, there fore he thrashed it more, it doesnt handle 1% as good as the performance cars, its unreliable...my parents were totally against buying a slow, little old 4cyl rubbish car that they knew was unreliable, easy to thrash etc, and they knew that i was different to some mates and i respected the fact i had a powerful car, like i said previously its all up to the person, its like sayin old farts drive slow, hate cars ect, my dad has been into performance cars all his life owning some pretty fast torana's xy gtho phase 3, supercharged pontiac gto there all huge power cars...im not sayin that every1 judges L platers, i agree that majority of them in this case are stupid but its not the case for every single one,

more training is required but like said that cannot prevent dumb acts but it can help...

as for why do u need a powerful fast car, simply i want one, i have an interest in fast cars...i dont want a slow piece of shit, honestly when im drivin thru town etc i generally go slower than the normal speed limit by alot, id just prefer to cruise than to go flat out, which i believe is only for the track...

tougher penalties would be good, the sensible drivers should have nothing to worry about then, and the dumb ones should think twice before doing something stupid...

cheers...ben.

[Sciby]

Ben: Anything I say below is no offence to you, okay? Okay.

The problem is that even though we may have some younger L/P drivers with powerful cars who *are* responsible, and only use the power sensibly, there are idiot L/P drivers out there who cause problems. Unfortunately, we don't have a sensible-o-meter yet, and like I stated before, training is an excellent idea, and will solve some of the inexperience issues, but it won't stop idiots who actively want to be idiots. A downside of training is that it may give inexperienced drivers a false sense of security. 'I did this course, therefore I can take this corner fast!'

I do have to ask though, you're on your L's, when do you get a chance to use the Skyline? Do you have older friends that cruise with you? P platers I can understand having them, (even though I may not neccessarily think it's a wise choice of car), but learner drivers, I feel, should be in vehicles that are less likely to bite them in the arse. Again, it's not an attack, I'm just curious. I drove a Mazda 808 for my L's and P's.

As for you having a fast car, you're like me. You got it because you want a fast car and you like it, etc... but do we *need* our cars? I'd say not at all. To follow that logically, L/P drivers don't need fast, powerful cars: they simply want them. Who can blame them? They're great, and give us a thrill when we're driving them. But is it safe for a 'baby driver' to be behind the wheel of a fast car?

However, all things mechanical being equal, I'd feel much safer with a 25 year old driving a skyline than I would with a 17-18 year old driving the same car. No offence to the L/P platers out there, but it comes down to experience for me.

Perhaps an answer is a combination of the three main suggestions... training, heavier penalities and power restrictions:

A learner has to pass the written and driving test, and also have to attend an advanced driving course. Since a lot of learners get their experience with their parent's car (generally with the parents in the car), I don't think a capacity restriction is workable, although a power restriction would be. Obviously, the average 6 cyl Falcadore would be acceptable, although I'm not sure with V8's... look at what happened to that family in Vic recently, with the L driver fishtailing the Clubbie down the road. I dunno. I'd say no, to be on the safe side. Penalties... if they're caught being really stupid or say 20 over the limit, L's are suspended for 6 months, have to reapply and restart the process.

P's... for the first year, they're power/capacity restricted, along with the speed rescriptions that NSW has. Heavier punishments in line with the L's, along with more advanced training at the end of the first year.

They pass the advanced training, they're allowed a jump in power/capacity (say, to include V6/straight six cars), less harsh punishments (but still harsher than opens to keep them motivated to be sensible)...

I'm not sure about the third year... maybe nothing, except for a final driving/written test rather than just rolling into their opens like what happened to me. I can probably remember only half of my written test.

Suggestions? Ideas? I think there's room to allow L's and P's to enjoy driving (without being stupid), yet keep themselves and others around them safe.

Something just mentioned to me by a co-worker: driving is a priviledge, not a right, as far too many people around our city assume.

[KEAGLE]

This is the same argument that has been on here often and I think the only thing it achives saying that every car (no matter what power) can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

Can anyone on here honestly say they have never gotten themselves out of some deep shite in a car and thought 'phew I was lucky I didn't crash' after your parents/fiends have told you not to play up?

No? Thought not...

All I am trying to say is if you want to stop the speeding/accidents or any other stupid behaviour in cars... you have to get rid of the cars! I don't think any of us want to see that happening.

I also don't believe in computerised cars driving for us. My computer has crashed twice while trying to type this... I'd hate to think what could happen...

[dnb]

how on earth do some people have skylines with big power on they're l's. omfg whats goin on here?

[Sciby]

This is the same argument that has been on here often and I think the only thing it achives saying that every car (no matter what power) can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

Yup, it has, but considering the original subject of the thread, it begs rediscussion.

Can anyone on here honestly say they have never gotten themselves out of some deep shite in a car and thought 'phew I was lucky I didn't crash' after your parents/fiends have told you not to play up?  

No? Thought not...

Nope, I can't say that I haven't. Guilty as charged.

However, that's not the topic in it's entirity. We're talking about whether it's wise or not for young, inexperienced L/P plater drivers to be able to drive powerful cars. A lot of people who did what you outlined in your example did it when they were young, scared themselves and then gained the wisdom not to push the car that hard or in that direction. Experience in the making. This does not mean they should go out and fling a car about in an effort to gain experience. There's a difference between gaining experience in due course and endangering themselves and others to prove themselves a good driver.

All I am trying to say is if you want to stop the speeding/accidents or any other stupid behaviour in cars... you have to get rid of the cars! I don't think any of us want to see that happening.

Again, you haven't got quite all of the stick. We're not talking about stopping speeding or accidents. Like you said, it'll never happen. We're talking about reducing deaths, increasing safety and restricting an L/P's platers ability to do stupid things, until they've gained the experience they need.

I also don't believe in computerised cars driving for us. My computer has crashed twice while trying to type this... I'd hate to think what could happen...

I doubt you're going to have something like your PC guiding your car any time soon. Windows, etc is inherantly unstable by dint of the mass of extra information and variables to make it as compatable as possible with varying types and brands of hardware and software.

If you were to get a full blown computer in your car, it would be much closer to a console, where the hardware is static, and the software is carefully coded to the platform, without having to consider variable hardware environments.

[PuppaDuck]

An excellent debate.

I have a few points to throw into this one:

- If I live in a family who all have Ferraris, would I be forced by society to go buy something below this standard, just because their perception is that they are unsafe cars to have as a learner ?

- Is it right to restrict all new cars to 110km/h just because anything over is deemed illegal ?

- Is giving a slow car to a learner a long-term solution, or are they just going to keenly look forward to the day they get their unrestricted license so they can experiment with what the big deal is all about ? Like smoking, drinking, sex, etc

- Is it right to blame inexperience, but at the same time have big name car manufacturers making commercials that boast speed, drifting in the desert and burnouts ? Things made out to be a thrilling experience.

- Are we destined to become a society who all have the same slow and safe car just because we have evolved by placing so many restrictions on ourselves ? How close would that be to just having everyone in the 22nd century sitting on some electric train ?

- Is driver education really working ? Or does it just promote overconfidence ? Perhaps it just gives the learner behind the wheel the confidence to start advancing from the basic use of driving a car, to experimenting with limits like speed and steering.

- It seems we are already a society destined to be flooded with 24 hour peak traffic and a top speed of 40 km/h. So why not let society progress as slowly as possible ?

- Perhaps the only way people are going to learn to be accountable on the road, is if for everyone who kills someone else on the road out of sheer ignorance for the law - they get their whole family taken to death row ?

- Why do I know so many girls who slip through the cracks with law enforcement of road rules ? How many warnings should a cute chick get ?

- Is the need for speed and power a bad thing ? or are we just stretching our arms out ready for space-flight ?

Hey dude ? Where's my car ?

Hoo-hoos ?

[SKY031]

- If I live in a family who all have Ferraris, would I be forced by society to go buy something below this standard, just because their perception is that they are unsafe cars to have as a learner ?

According to Victorias P plate rules, if the only car registered to the house is a Ferrari, then you can get an exemption to be able to drive it.

[Guest jimmyd17]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmyd17

What needs to happen is to make proper advanced driver training a compulsary component of passing your licence test. At the end of the day, the bottom line is SAFETY.  

How is that going to enforce safe driving? How is that going to stop people being di(kheads?

I wouldnt use the term, "enforce safe driving" as such... Enforcing safe driving can never "really" be enforced (it may have some effect) because of the dickheads that dis-regard the laws anyway. you can never stop people from being dickheads, but you can educate all drivers (including dickheads) and make it so they have to pass a high standard advanced driving test to get their licence so that everyone has a much better understanding of the characteristics of a car.. eg: what it can do and what it cant, and also better education of how easy it is for something to go wrong at high speed so people have a better concept of how dangerous high speeds on pulic roads really is. if all this were to happen, i believe it would have a dramatic effect on decreasing the number of fatalities on the roads. after all, that is the issue here, to make things SAFER and REDUCE the road toll. NOT to create more revenue and harsh punishment for offenders. i think we already have quite sufficient punishment as a median for all drivers... you cant just make things harsher and harsher to punish the dickheads, because unfortunately ppl that arent dickheads can be exposed to harsher punishments, so its for everyone.. not just the dickheads as put.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmyd17

Anyway, for the people that say tougher penalties are the go, have a think about it.. its just not logical. Sure, granted that it may deter a proportion of people that may otherwise do stupid things, but the effect it would have on sensible people would probably even outweigh the stupid people.  

If sensible people are acting sensibly, how does a tougher penalty on a stupid person affect them?

In a perfect world of, this would never be an issue. I'll use a couple of examples as to how an innocent person can be caught up in certain laws and penalties. About 2 years ago, I was driving home one night and I was pulled over by a marked police car. There were no cars about, or street lights etc.. middle of nowhere. The police established that I was driving on my learners permit without an experienced driver, or displaying L plates. OK, i openly admit I was in the wrong there, i have no issue with this at all. They took the keys off me and drove me home, leaving the car on the side of the road. that was the end of that, they said they'd send me a summons. About 2 months later a policeman arrives at my doorstep with a summons. Then he asks for my learners permits explaining that he has to take it. Quite confused I asked him why that was. He showed me on the summons there was an extra charge (which had been fabricated by the cops) of "refuse preliminary breath test"... i was like.. WTF!? i was never asked for a breath test AT ALL, i was 100% sober that night, why on earth would i refuse that if i was sober. i said there must be a mistake. but no, i read through the cops statement and there was about an extra page of made up conversation added in there that was not true. loss of license for 2 years before it had even been to court... it took 2½ years for me to finally take it to the County Court and the judge dismissed the charge. so i was found innocent in the end, but it was too late, i had already copped the full penalty of 2 years no license.

Another example: A friend of mine was caught speeding in his R33 GTS-t. the police claimed they clocked him at 187km/h on the Eastern Freeway at about 2am one morning. Now he is absolutely adimate that there was NO chance he was going anywhere near those kind of speeds. he said he may have been doing 120 tops, but i say big woop on an empty freeway in an R33. if they did what they should have and clocked him at 120, well fair enough cop that on the chin. an unmarked VY SS police car flew past him at a very high speed and this was around the position the other police car on the side of the road clocked him from... They clocked the other police car and turned it onto him. So my friend loses his licence for 12 months and a $400 odd fine.

Im sorry if it seems like im turning this thread into a bitching session about cops because the majority of the police in my experience are quite reasonable and are there to do their job. Unfortunately there are a minority that don't do what they should, so giving the police more power to enforce tougher penalties has the potential to have an unfair bearing on people that are in reality acting sensibly.

Tougher penalties has its good and bad sides. The good side is to deter people from speeding, the bad side is that people that sensible people could be caught up from time to time. In my view the bad side far outweighs the good... reason being that you are never gonna stop people from being dickheads. making tougher penalties and restricting people to certain cars is never going to stop dickheads from completely disregarding these laws.

Again, the way to reduce the road toll is to educate people more of the dangers of excessive speeding, and make advanced driver training compulsary including passing advanced driver tests.

soz again for such a lengthy post,

cheers,

James

[Sciby]

An excellent debate.

I have a few points to throw into this one:

- If I live in a family who all have Ferraris, would I be forced by society to go buy something below this standard, just because their perception is that they are unsafe cars to have as a learner ?

Well, I'll answer for myself here...

Your ferrari's example is a bit extreme, but let's say you're a learner and the government adopts something similar to what I outlined before. As a learner, as long as the car isn't too powerful (ie, more than a family v8), you'll be fine. You *have* to have an open-licenced driver in with you, to help temper any rushes of blood you have... or at least, that's the idea. Even if you had a hoon older brother, hopefully his experience would help you learn.

Since you'll probably be buying your own car (or at least wanting to) when you get your P's, you'll have plenty of time to plan for the fact that you'll have to have a lower powered car.

It's a system that works for bike riders, for many years now, no reason why it can't work for cars. It's just helping to temper the younger/newer riders from mashing themselves.

- Is it right to restrict all new cars to 110km/h just because anything over is deemed illegal ?

*scratches head* I don't think we've said anything about speed limiting? I certainly haven't, but while we're on the subject... I have no problem with people breaking the speed limit to reasonable levels... to which it always amazes me how new passenger cars have 200+kph speedos... I could cut the 53 wire on my Skyline, but I have utterly no need to go over 180. *shrug*

- Is giving a slow car to a learner a long-term solution, or are they just going to keenly look forward to the day they get their unrestricted license so they can experiment with what the big deal is all about ? Like smoking, drinking, sex, etc

Good question. I would say that they would be looking forward to the day that they get it, but thanks to advanced training, and a gradual step-up idea that I suggested before, it won't be a jump from a 1.3L excel to a 7L twin turbo V8 mustang or something. They'll have some experience and not just on slower cars, so while there would be some "I can't wait to be able to drive my Skyline!" I think there would be less silliness (well, maybe some), but certainly less accidents that could be attributed to a lack of experience in driving and in handling cars.

- Is it right to blame inexperience, but at the same time have big name car  

manufacturers making commercials that boast speed, drifting in the desert and burnouts ? Things made out to be a thrilling experience.

Well, let's looking at smoking and drinking... ads for both have always suggested the fun times that follow or how cool you'll look... 'thrilling', from a certain point of view... they don't outline the lung cancer or the liver disease in the ads. My experience with both is that I get hangovers and I cough a lot, so I don't do much drinking and I don't smoke anymore.

- Are we destined to become a society who all have the same slow and safe car just because we have evolved by placing so many restrictions on ourselves ? How close would that be to just having everyone in the 22nd century sitting on some electric train ?

Er, being a little Orwellian here, aren't you? Ensuring that new drivers are prepared to be drivers and not just licence holders will not crush motoring as a hobby. In fact, I would suggest that we would see a generation of more prepared, responsible drivers that would be better able to deal with the more and more powerful standard cars that are coming out these days.

- Is driver education really working ? Or does it just promote overconfidence ? Perhaps it just gives the learner behind the wheel the confidence to start advancing from the basic use of driving a car, to experimenting with limits like speed and steering.

Very good questions... I worry about the overconfidence thing, as I mentioned before. I think if you took a 20 year old guy, who owned say a 5L v8 c'dore (or something of a similar power) and gave him some advanced 'here's how to get out of trouble' training, he would probably feel overconfident and try silly stuff. Which I do find concerning.

However, he *does* have the skills (I would hope) from the course, to get him out of said trouble... and perhaps do more follow-on courses (or have to do mandatory ones, if my suggestions were implimented).

- It seems we are already a society destined to be flooded with 24 hour peak traffic and a top speed of 40 km/h. So why not let society progress as slowly as possible ?

Okay, now we're deep in sociology territory here.

We can't stop society progressing. Everyone wants bigger, faster, longer, higher, more, more, more... look at the average power figures of new cars now... a standard family Falcon has just as much power as a VT series 1 Clubsport. We can't stop it, but we can help prepare people to deal with it better and not kill themselves in the process.

- Perhaps the only way people are going to learn to be accountable on the road, is if for everyone who kills someone else on the road out of sheer ignorance for the law - they get their whole family taken to death row ?

Er, a little bit of overkill there and the human rights groups would start an uprising. At the moment, what happens if you're naught in a car and you're caught? You lose money and you walk for a while. What if they made it a truly criminal offence where it affected your ability to gain employment or you had to do serious jail time?

Also, ignorance isn't a legal defence. If you use that, they'll say it's your responsibility as an Australian citizen to know the law and your rights within it.

- Why do I know so many girls who slip through the cracks with law enforcement of road rules ? How many warnings should a cute chick get ?

Same as an ugly guy, in my opinion.

- Is the need for speed and power a bad thing ? or are we just stretching our arms out ready for space-flight ?

I don't think so, not at all (although space flight would be neat). I have the same addiction that everyone else on these forums have... it's not the addiction to speed that's the problem, it's the unexpected sharp decellerations that causes the headaches (and decapitations), when something bad happens that you're not prepared for or knowledgable about dealing with.

Everything I've said in this thread has not been about slowing people down permenantly. It's about easing new drivers into it, educating them properly, not just giving them a 30 question true/false quiz and 20 minutes in a car with a half-bored public servant who's ticking 'yes/no' boxes on a sheet.

[Sciby]

Again, the way to reduce the road toll is to educate people more of the dangers of excessive speeding, and make advanced driver training compulsary including passing advanced driver tests.

soz again for such a lengthy post,

cheers,

James  

Heh, I wouldn't worry, look at the length of my freakin' posts.

I agree with you about the training, as you may have seen.

[2BNVS]

dnb: pretty easy mate, i bought the car, dad and i started working on it taking it to workshops spending and saving money to get big power...

Sciby: i must admit i have to agree with u on a lot of points u have made, just some are arguable but its really a topic i dont think will ever full get settled and its not like im takin it to heart really coz i can understand...

i drive my car with either unrestricted licensed friends or my dad in the car with me, and although sometimes my mates are a bit pushy they know im on my L's and engourage me NOT to do anything outrageous, as for my dad he doesnt want me learning to drive a car doin 20km/h under the limit all the time and turning into streets at 5km/h he is just in love for power and cars as what i am, although he doesnt encourage me to drive like a dickhead and be stupid, but he knows that i understand the consequences that could happen if i be dumb...

cheers...ben.

cheers...ben.

[jabtronic]

I personally think that a system similar to bike licences should be adopted... L's and P's are restricted to X capacity, no turbos, etc. Make it 2.5L so they can still get NA 33's.

Yeah but in a case like this one, where the girl has blatantly broke the law twice, would a licence power restriction really stop her?

Where the hell are her parents anyway? If she still lives with them that is.

[i wear moccos]

there was mention of the nsw speed restrictions for P platers. isnt that 80kmh max?

i live in victoria, but can some people from nsw comment on how this works? wouldnt it discourage p platers from driving? do you take your P plates down to drive at normal speed?

[2BNVS]

i believe that if u are deprived of something it cant always be a good thing. i feel that if a L plater cant drive a powerful car they will either be rebelious and do it anyway or lives up the day when they can actually drive something powerful and think he is invincible. either way in their head they are either matured or not, u can be 30 y/o and never driven something powerful and drive like a dikhead...

in comparison to my car and my friends scoupe- mine has shit loads more power yes...mine has full handling upgrades and kills his car for control etc, his ride is bumpy and shit, mine is quite good, i have braking up grades his brake are stock and poor... ive driven his car and personally hate it, i find it very dangerous to drive, he knows it can go so if he thrashes it he thinks nothing will happen but he could actually lose it coz the car is being pushed to hard, and in the gong majority of the guys i see in shitboxes tend to thrash their cars more than the guys with powerful ones...

a friend of mine went from a 0.9cyl swift ga 3cyl a year later got an xr6t running low 13s 8 months after that got an STi v5 2door rexy which not runs a 12 flat, no chance he could have learned how to drive those last 2 cars by practising in a swift...

and another mate had a s coupe and had that for 4 years then bought a 99 model stock rexy and cant drive for shit...

i just think that if learners learn in a powerful car to start with ( driving sensibly of course) i feel like they would have an advantage against someone older who is used to something slow then jumping into something quick... a good friend of mine in a VLT was his 1st car and still is his car, it goes pretty hard, his dad has been driving for 30 odd years and i guarentee if something happened in that car he wouldnt know wtf to do...

but like jabtronic said, so what if there are restrictions this chick broke the l aw as it is so do u think she would care about the power restriction...that was the main arguement in this topic...

anyways been a good discussion on ppls point of views...

cheers...ben.

[Laurence]

The car doesn't make the driver, that is one thing that is for sure.

A powerful car can teach you respect for the throttle but not a lot else IMHO.

Rolling around in a GT-R at 50% of its limit doesn't really teach you as much as 90% in a Swift GA. I am certain that your mate with his S-Coupé would have been crap even if he followed the same path as your other mate.

Peter Brock's Torana that won Bathurst would send most of us to sleep with its performance, but he turned out ok. I think people's perspectives have been warped by Fast & Furious style junk, gotta have a 10second car!

If Initial D has taught us anything it is the value of learning to drive in lowish powered car

[Flite]

back to the topic of this dumb chick. hope she crashes and kills herself serves her right. at least her lotto winnings can go towards a nice funeral.

[StuiE]

- Is it right to restrict all new cars to 110km/h just because anything over is deemed illegal ?

Gets me real worked up anytime a politian etc. says that,

That would make your car useless for the track, if no-one is on the track then they're on the streets. Most likely someone would find a way around the speed limiter anyway.

[d0p3y]

Mate ahh I saw her on da nooz and she was ah fully hectic what a sick chick yulleh.....

No seriously, anyone see the interview on Today Tonight last night? She was a dumb bitch... Hey AND! Aren't 300ZX's limited to 180km/h anyway? It looked pretty stock

[Sciby]

d0p3y, a speed cut defender or an AM ecu or a cut wire generally isn't visible from the outside.