Back To Back Testing Of P98 Vs P98+water Injection Vs P98 Vs Water Meth Injection

[JGB1600]

G’day guy,

 

For this instalment, the aim was to optimise the tune in the lower RPM range and increase the total power output by increasing the water meth flow to around 50% of total fuel flow. This equated to roughly 1250cc/min. The system was set up to use a total of 4 jets, 3 in the charge pipe post intercooler and 1 pre turbo.

Tuning saw us achieve some great gains in the lower and mid range RPM, as you can see from the before and after dyno pictures below. But with the water meth activated, we soon realized that this configuration was not yielding the results we were after, with a 16kw decrease over our last peak numbers.

At this point, we took a set back and sat down with the Unigroup Engineering crew to investigate the possible causes of the drop in power and a way ahead. In the end it came down to the fact the we were injecting too much water meth in a localised area, as we had over 1100cc/min being injected at one area post intercooler. This caused the air to reached and exceeded 100% saturation point, meaning the amount of air entering the engine could no longer suspend the liquid being injected in an atomised form. This causes overcooling of the combustion process due to poor atomisation, leading to a loss in power, which is exactly what we were experiencing.

It was decided that we would remove one of the three charge pipe jets which would reduce the post intercooler injection to around 800cc/min. This resulted in an 11kw in in power and a much nicer power curve right through the rev range. That said, we were still 5kw off our previous peak of 336kw. We decided to leave it there for now, as we will be making some changes in the near future, which we will expand on shortly.

During the tuning process, we paid close attention to the EGTs, via the thermocouples fitted to the exhaust manifold. A significant temperature drop in EGTs was noticed when water meth was activated, as was the fact that cylinder number 2 was running quite a bit hotter than the rest. Some individual cylinder fuel adjustment was used to quickly solve this issue.

During a recent outing to Sydney’s roll racing, we did some data logging. The ambient temp on the day was up around the 38-degree mark. In the waiting lanes, air intake temp reached 50+ degrees. At the end of each run, air intake temps were down to 40 degrees.

In the next instalment, we will be maintaining the current flow rate but making the switch back to direct port water meth injection. This will be done using 1x140cc/min jet in each inlet runner, 1x250cc/min jet post intercooler piping and 1x150cc/min jet pre turbo. The reason for making the switch is for better atomisation, less chance of saturation and a more equal distribution of the water meth.  We are hopeful that with this change and some more fine tuning, we will be able to achieve 350rwkw. Only time will tell so stay tuned. Please feel free to add to the discussion by leaving any questions or feedback you may have. Cheers

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(Hub dyno figures.)

 

(Most recent chassis dyno figures.)

Edited March 26, 2017 by JGB1600
missing info

[JGB1600]

 

 

[JGB1600]

 

 

[GTSBoy]

Cool.  But I wouldn't consider a 16kW, 11kW or 5kW "difference" from previous as being a trustworthy number.  Power could have changed for other reasons, both inside the engine and to do with the dyno (such as how hard it was strapped down, tyre pressures, blah blah blah).  You're talking about 1.5% difference at the end there.

[JGB1600]

G’day guys,

Thought we’d post a quick update to cover off on all the changes we have made over the past few months. We have now upgraded to gen 2 Garrett gtx3071r, Bosch motorsport 1550cc fuel injectors and an in tank Walbro 460 fuel pump. We also made the switch back to direct port water meth injection, using 4x0.6mm direct port check valve jets, along with 2x0.5mm post intercooler jets and 1x0.4 pre turbo jet.

On the Unigroup Engineering dyno last Thursday, with ambient air temps reaching 36+ degrees, the car made 277kw/371hp @22 psi without water meth injection. With the water meth on (using a 80/20 methanol/water mix), it made 352kw/471hp @ 30psi and 388kw/520hp @ 35psi. At this point, we reached the knock limit of the engine due to maxing out the flow of the water meth system. We will upgrade this system early in the New Year in a bid to squeeze a little more from this setup.

Cheers

 

[R_34]

I'm surprised you saw more power going to 35 psi, to be honest I think the turbo is done at those power/pressure level. You're already overspeeding it. Anything beyond 50 lb/min at 35 psi is definitely in overspeed.

It may explain why you ran out of "boost juice", if the turbo is maxed out, the engine is not so happy at taking timing.

If you still run a maf i'd check how much air is going in your engine, if not I'd measure the inlet turbine pressure to see where you're at. 

[JGB1600]

We are confident that the turbo is not being oversped. But just to be sure we will be fitting a turbo speed sensor prior to further tuning early in the New Year. 

 

[RICE RACING]

Good work and good post

Get a proper ECU on it Life Racing or Syvecs,  leave the other hobby Dicksmith/Jaycar/Hobby motorsport rubbish alone. Integrate it in correctly so its a full water injected car, combined with M&W CDI and power is unlimited with none of the well documented and proven head farks of E85 nightmares either.

Fully developed WMI car below....

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by RICE RACING
speeelling

[BakemonoRicer]

49 minutes ago, RICE RACING said:

Good work and good post

Get a proper ECU on it Life Racing or Syvecs,  leave the other hobby Dicksmith/Jaycar/Hobby motorsport rubbish alone. Integrate it in correctly so its a full water injected car, combined with M&W CDI and power is unlimited with none of the well documented and proven head farks of E85 nightmares either.

Fully developed WMI car below....

 

What E85 nightmares??

 

All you need is the right fuel system for E85 and life is peachy.

Problem is very few people seem to run the right surge setup (mainly because it will cost $7-10k).

 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

1 hour ago, BakemonoRicer said:

What E85 nightmares??

 

All you need is the right fuel system for E85 and life is peachy.

Problem is very few people seem to run the right surge setup (mainly because it will cost $7-10k).

 

What surge setup cost $7 to $10k?

[Ben C34]

This thread has taken a turn.

E85 nightmares

10 k surge tanks

 

Lol

[Mick_o]

Lol! E85 is no nightmare at all. Get your fuel supply right and there are no head farks?

WMI is way more of a headache from a tuning perspective to buying methanol and filling up multiple tanks,sensors etc. Then more variables and things to go wrong. 

Generally speaking in most cities E85 is readily available at the pump. Fill your tank and GO. Thats it! 

Whats methanol worth a litre? $3 or so?

[RICE RACING]

NO EXCUSES > "sorry mate cant boost it today, only E45.9 showing on arnieflex2000 sensor on egay dash" OR "sorry mate, had to fill up on only 98 oct cause had to drive more than 200km in a day" OR "man only got indian fuel cause my sorted station was out today"........... *insert plethora of other dog turd reasoning stories etc there

 

So lets see if some here can understand this? or if they are so smart can share their own statistics on what a road car actually does then a proper debate can be had rather than certain people pushing their own bandwagon. Pushing is actually pretty right description cause you don't go very far on a tank of E85

For the slow learners on here, this car is RAPED every time it gets driven, on load is defined as following

on load engine speed 3500rpm or higher

on load throttle position 50% or higher

on load vehicle speed 150kph or higher

So with the facts presented in the interests of this thread, lets work out how much time is spent pissing E85 into your sump oil ruining the insides of your engine, corroding and eating away via formic acid creation, degrading engine bearings, blocking fuel injectors/filters and generally farking any true road going car. All while raping your wallet paying for something you don't need all while making your car un drivable modern flinstones pedal powered crap box cause you need to get out your jizzphone and google up which stations might have randomly variable guess game fuel on hand on any given day??? but I guess grasshopper this is what you mean about sorting out your fuel supply???? MAD MAX anyone ???? LOL @ u clown.

Edited January 2, 2018 by RICE RACING

[GTSBoy]

Wow.  So much stupid.

[RICE RACING]

21 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

Wow.  So much stupid.

From E85 groupies totally agreed with you there mate.

[RICE RACING]

So 99% of the time you are paying money for nothing.

The other 1% of time you are watching your fuel gauge to make sure you have enough E85 to make it back home or to your 'sorted' fuel supplier LOL

100% of the time you are sh*ting yourself wondering where you can take your car and what excuse you are going to use when you cant drive your car hard cause you are away from your 'sorted' fuel supplier or your forgot to hook up the box trailer to carry your 205lt fuel drums in tow MAD MAX style.

Stay on thread topic clowns

Its about how great water injection is and and how smart people use it as the #1 choice for fast and reliable cars that work ALL THE TIME, not some of the time

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

I'm on both sides of here, however you have many invalid points stated above Peter. Even at E50 there's enough knock resistance you can happily run the same amount of boost and timing as you did on E85.

And remember it's now 2018 not 2008, we have stainless internal injectors and fuel pumps specifically made for E85.

There are pros and cons for both setups, neither of which are perfect.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

2 minutes ago, RICE RACING said:

So 99% of the time you are paying money for nothing.

The other 1% of time you are watching your fuel gauge to make sure you have enough E85 to make it back home or to your 'sorted' fuel supplier LOL

100% of the time you are sh*ting yourself wondering where you can take your car and what excuse you are going to use when you cant drive your car hard cause you are away from your 'sorted' fuel supplier or your forgot to hook up the box trailer to carry your 205lt fuel drums in tow MAD MAX style.

Stay on thread topic clowns

Its about how great water injection is and and how smart people use it as the #1 choice for fast and reliable cars that work ALL THE TIME, not some of the time

No, you have flex fuel setups for that reason.

I drive my car anywhere and anytime I want it. I put whatever fuel I see that appeals to me at the time. I don't need to hook up a box trailer to carry any drums.

WTAC cars, don't see any with WMI. V8 Supercars, don't see any with WMI.

 

[RICE RACING]

Johnny, its a water injection thread, not lets say you are a dumb c*nt for using WI thread

Does not matter if its 1908 or 2018 WI was always a superior engineering solution to an age old problem of detonation control + package efficiency.

[RICE RACING]

And you are missing the basic fundamental you DONT have full power, we always do ;-) enough to counter any situation, you cant get past a range limit of 250km

No one needs to look at hobby racers mate, you need to look at real engineers, this was done 100+ years ago, before the internetz