Back To Back Testing Of P98 Vs P98+water Injection Vs P98 Vs Water Meth Injection

[Bond]

I didn't realise you would use so little.  

[reaper]

Very interesting as I am having similar intake temp issues myself. Are you triggering this through the ECU or does it have its own controller?

[RICE RACING]

  On 08/01/2018 at 11:34 AM, Ben C34 said:

I have seen the videos and have owned one.

That test sort of shows  an issue that I wonder about. It's the fact that the flow of water is pulsing. So one cylinder may get more or less than another depending on where in the air stream the pulses are. From what I could tell the rate of the pulsing isn't given.

Also that video doesn't show how close the valve is, I imagine it is as close as possible.

I suppose my concern is it isn't the same as actually injecting fuel, so therefore doesn't have the same control.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of it, I just don't like it enough to buy another one after having parted out the car it was on years ago.

currently I am using a single nozzle pressure activated system and for all purposes it is doing the job great. Granted I don't need my car to have great part throttle boost response (drag use, straight line warrior, can't go around corners etc) so it's not the best example.

just thinking out loud. E85 injectors would be the best outcome for a properly controlled setup, if they handle it. Cmon Bosch, make me some injectors, I will buy 8.

 

Expand  

Here is how I get around your concerns and the only real way to do this on an  inline 6cyl engine.

To save a pissing match or others getting upset its not an advertisement nor me selling anything. Just interested to help if they are keen to know some more feel free to ask. Performance specs listed here > http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum2/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1590&page=42

Control aspect is fully integrated on the ECU control side, engine can be run with, without, partial, or otherwise on the water injection system. I have found this is the best way to do it, its basically automated and say if something is 'wrong' on any one part of the system the knock control (to give an example) will act as a final trip to eliminate any engine damage from ever happening to an expensive engine such as pictured below.

Edited June 4, 2018 by RICE RACING

[WHITER33GTS-T]

Anymore details on this kit?

What's a kit like this worth.? 

[RICE RACING]

  On 03/06/2018 at 10:16 AM, Bond said:

I didn't realise you would use so little.  

Expand  

If you want to use WM50 at the level I guess most here want? (to exceed E85 performance) a more realistic usage rate is say on 1% on load in 650km road driving you will use 15lt of fluid. The pictured motor and link I provided we have done this in one month of durability testing, extrapolate that out to 200lt a year so 100lt of Methanol if mixing by volume.

Its more fair to express the usage rate in terms of ratio to main fuel supply, everyone's going to vary obviously depending on time on load and ultimately how much the car is driven, so you can not put a nominal figure on it based on these variables. You could be mixing WM50 every week for example.

[tridentt150v]

  On 08/01/2018 at 3:21 AM, Ben C34 said:

I hope i don't upset the calm here, however i am very curious how it is possible to implement a really good water/meth injection setup.

By that i mean with ultimate control. The simple on / 0ff system being the lest control, however completely workable at full noise.

Its just that at part throttle too much spray is occurring.

The Aquamist use a high speed valve to modulate the flow, however that is just affecting pressure downstream that gets to the nozzles, so a lower pressure would be a poor distribution i would have thought?

 

Seeing as you need to increase pressure by 4 to double the flow, it seems the useable range of modulation is limited.

 

So my question is, is it possible to get a really well controlled water meth spray in all conditions, not just full noise?

Seems to me its tricky. But also doesn't really matter i suppose if spraying too much at part throttle.

 

 

 

Expand  

That's what I thought my Stage III Snow performance system did? 

I have it set up to start at 7psi and/or 30% IDC, and all in at 14psi and/or 70% IDC, so its variable between 8 to 14 psi and/or 30 to 70% IDC.

But I can set up for any values really...its up to me.

Or am I reading your question incorrectly?

BTW I use around 2 litres of 50/50 mix every 3-4000km, highway miles though, no city driving, no commuting, no boy racing, pretty much open roads only.  Going up a steep hill, some going through the gears/taking off maybe,  or overtaking uses it.

[Ben C34]

  On 08/06/2018 at 8:10 AM, tridentt150v said:

That's what I thought my Stage III Snow performance system did? 

I have it set up to start at 7psi and/or 30% IDC, and all in at 14psi and/or 70% IDC, so its variable between 8 to 14 psi and/or 30 to 70% IDC.

But I can set up for any values really...its up to me.

Or am I reading your question incorrectly?

BTW I use around 2 litres of 50/50 mix every 3-4000km, highway miles though, no city driving, no commuting, no boy racing, pretty much open roads only.  Going up a steep hill, some going through the gears/taking off maybe,  or overtaking uses it.

Expand  

But how much is it flowing at the start? 1% or 20% of max.? I can't see how the flow can be controlled with a decent spray at low values. The aquamist high speed valve is really just dropping the supply pressure to the nozzle/s, not working like an injector does. in a way its nicer than modulating the pump flow, but i wonder how the pulses of flow through the nozzles impacts overall water meth delivery as it isn't consistent.

 

I am currently using a twin stage system, at least then i know at a certain point i get 500cc then at another point i get 1000cc total. Like i said i have owned and used an aquamist system and sold it. (different car now)

Using boost alone for a variable flow system to me is totally pointless, you could be at 1 or 10 psi at 3000 or 8000rpm, which would require different flow.

Using injector duty cycle is the most logical, followed by MAF voltage. But at the moment i kind of just like the idea of an "all in system", because at low loads you dont really need to run any injection do you?

i am going to play around with PWM control of my pump, and i have a flow meter (industrial one) so i can actually log flow, and maybe setup safeties based on that. 

 

[tridentt150v]

yeah, not sure how much it flows right at the start, I don't have a feed curve.  But I am also conservative in my thresholds...which probably aids as a 'fudge factor'.  Would be interesting to find out what the baseline is for the SP3 kit, I am assuming it would be more like the 20% or more so than the 1%...but I don't know.  I might have a look on the SP website and see if they have anything.

The fact that the SP3 kit uses dual triggers was what sold me...IDC and boost one or the other can trigger the system.

Edit: Nothing on their website...I have sent them an email, hopefully they will reply with the goods!!!

 

 

 

[RICE RACING]

  On 01/06/2018 at 11:16 AM, JGB1600 said:

 

G’day guys,

 

Had an enquiry earlier in the week from a member who has been following this post so thought I’d share some updates.

 In one of my earlier posts, I mentioned that WMI and E85 would be a killer combo.

 

 

 

Expand  

Top work Orlando

Water is the key here, as you know there is way too much ignorance around this. 100% Methanol detonates in spectacular fashion in drag applications as does Ethanol. The Aquamist systems I have found to be great, we focus heavily on fueling quality and qty, as well as cylinder combustion stability in all operating conditions.

Keep it up mate.

[tridentt150v]

Reply from Snow performance:

"We have a minimum duty cycle the controller will send out which is rated for 50 psi pump pressure ( nozzle are rated to atomize down to 40 psi ) so 1 % duty cycle is 50 psi ramping up to the 100%. while 1% duty cycle is possible because of the way the system generally kicks on i have never seen the controller read a 1% i think i have seen as low as 6% once the ramp up begins.

 

The amount it uses per % point will depend on nozzle size, absolute pump pressure settings and screen filter dirt level - there are a lot of factors that relate to the exact amount of fluid being injected."

 

I would have loved a graph showing the ramp up but SP don't seem to have one unfortunately. Their last statement is a cop out IMO, they could have done a family curve for all nozzle sizes or a single graph with formula to use for your specific setup. 

[Ben C34]

Well that is very interesting    

 a 1000 mL at 100psi nozzle  will flow 770 mL at 50 psi which is not particularly progressive, and certainty not as progressive as people would assume.

makes a simple dual stage system look pretty good!

 

 

 

Edit

 

i it I assumed it is 100psi max and that wouldn’t be the case, so my math above is off. Will update it later

[tridentt150v]

  On 15/06/2018 at 7:58 AM, Ben C34 said:

Well that is very interesting    

 a 1000 mL at 100psi nozzle  will flow 770 mL at 50 psi which is not particularly progressive, and certainty not as progressive as people would assume.

makes a simple dual stage system look pretty good!

 

 

 

Edit

 

i it I assumed it is 100psi max and that wouldn’t be the case, so my math above is off. Will update it later

Expand  

That's a pretty aggressive flow rate you are looking at...drag racing?

I use a 375 nozzle which is more than enough for how I use it and as stated before don't use that much for normal driving.  They say the SPIII kit can handle a twin nozzle dual stage setup though....I just don't need it.