Illicit Drugs

[elChin0]

I've just heard the same argument regarding using drugs with no answer to the obvious (and repeatedly stated) issue of the unavoidable impact upon society, even speaking only financially.

99% of the people in this thread are speaking about recreational drug use, so the old medicinal use argument won't hold water.

I happen to believe in personal freedom as long as it doesn't impinge upon anyone else as it mirrors my own views on firearm ownership, something that is important to me.

No one in this thread has been able to demonstrate the benefits of recreational drug use outside of anecdotal references like "I'm too happy on MDMA to get into fights"

We already have two examples of legal recreational drug use in Alcohol and Tobacco (nicotine).

I think Alcohol best suites this example as Tobacco might kill you in the long run, but doesnt leave you high/drunk, in a state of mind where you have an increased chance of doing harm to yourself/others.

When its legal - it is controlled and money goes to the government. Many people still abuse it but many enjoy responsibly.

When it was Illegal - it is not controlled and money goes to criminals. Many people still abuse it but many enjoy responsibly.

There will always be abusers. It makes no difference, legal or not, regulated and available to the public or supplied by criminals.

I feel like im missing something huge here? Does this not make sense at all? lol

[Anfanee]

Still you're missing the elephant in the room Corey.

You just named two of the biggest issues we have as a society.

Smoking and drinking.

Have a look at the social and economical impact of drinking and smoking you see why it isn't a good argument.

Saying "drinking is legal, why can't MDMA be" isn't a valid argument. At all.

Why would we as a country, when the government is trying so hard to minimise the impact of drinking in multiple ways, look at going backwards?

Why should taxpayers have to fit the bill?

[Trozzle]

I must ask, if you don't mind sharing Corey, but what is your experience with recreational drugs? I'm honestly curious, as while I agree with your argument and points, my experience in "the scene" (f**k I hate saying that) tells me first and foremost, above manufacturing quality product and regulating it, still lies the need for education. I see far too many people every time I go out who have no idea what they're getting into and no matter how long I sit there and have a chat with them outside the club, they just don't understand that they're still pushing the line way too far with their use.

In fact, and this is a very strange point, a lot of these users are actually lucky that what they were consuming wasn't actually MDMA, or it was very low quality. If it were legitimate MDMA, the amount they'd consume each session and the frequency they'd do it would have f**ked them sideways into possibly the worst psychological (and potentially physical) state they've ever encountered. The fact that what they were consuming didn't have the same mechanism of action or pharmacology as MDMA potentially saved them a really bad time. Stories of idiots consuming up to (and exceeding) a whole f**king gram through the night.

They're lucky. 400mg spread over 3 doses is enough to have me feeling like ratshit (yeah I've learned the hard way....)

[elChin0]

Okay so first off I want to clarify I have no experience with anything except alcohol and cannabis. Cannabis on a semi regular basis.

Ha! I did say I must be missing something huge! The elephant in the room you mention is a good point I have not thought of previously.

However the point I am trying to make is that prohibition doesn't work either. We have the ability to look back at our past attempts and learn, let's do that.

Like you said Troy, It all comes down to education. Most seem to know about the effects of smoking, alcohol and somewhat cannabis but not much else, I personally don't know shit about MDMA? It's just all "bad" for you, which in some cases I won't argue lol.

We can't live in a perfect society but we can at the very least educate people so that they make better decisions regarding their recreational drug use.

My argument of regulation and control of marijuana don't necessarily fit for all drugs, like i mentioned before. I don't have enough knowledge or experience with any other drugs to be able to say yep mdma should be sold next to cigarettes. This is why I said that decriminalisation might be the solution ? Don't arrest people, educate them.

[Trozzle]

Sorry if I gave the impression I thought you "didn't know shit", I didn't even mean to question whether you'd ever taken it yourself haha I actually figured you had by the way you speak on it (as in you aren't demonising the fk out of it without experience). nothing wrong with commenting on it without having ever tried it, especially when you're in support of harm reduction. It's when you speak like old mate above on how everything is destroying your body and mind, yet have never experienced it for yourself.

You've absolutely got the right idea, and I'd like to hope the ultimate goal is legalisation (that's a selfish wish mind you ). It's just all I'm saying is people need to know the FACTS on these substances and how you can still come to harm through abusing them, given the ridiculous volume of misleading information they've been lead to believe over the decades. Like those with no interest in using these drugs themselves, yet are still categorically against someone they'll never meet in their lives being allowed to use them either because of how supposedly harmful they are if used at all.

And as someone who wishes for nothing more than to go out and have a fun night with my girlfriend, making new friends along the way, without running the risk of a criminal record for possessing merely 2 capsules of MDMA in my pocket, decriminalisation is simply right. What am I doing to harm anyone, besides some nightclub's alcohol sales (actually f**k them, I still pay $10 to get into the joint).

[25RBGT]

I have tried most of them draw the line at ice and heroin. Many friends and family members have been left in a very fragile mental state.

Weed yeah smoked it for 10 years everyday nothing but eating stupid shit and a little paranoid on occasion.Ice seems to be the one that gets them all.

I luckily grew out of it and thought enough.We all make our own choices as we all control our destiny.

I've made my share of dumb choices but turning my life around is by far the best one I have ever made.

The only sad thing is watching old friends of 20years that didn't.

Btw (alcohol)smoking weed most recreational drugs. I substituted beer for weed. Hell yeah I was dependent on the crap. But still nothing really went wrong. Drinking took over spiralled out of control then. Found my self in hospital waking up after being in a coma on life support for 4 weeks. Then started many years of recovery. Had to learn to walk talk eat look after my self all over again at 26yo.

I woke up docs gathered around and explained how I would never walk again. After years of hard work commitment I proved them wrong.

Morel keep away from all of them legal or not. Don't try them and think you have it under control they control you!

[Birds]

i'm just a poor boy

I need no sympathy

[elChin0]

Oh no, that question mark after "I don't know shit about mdma" was accidental haha funny how that can change the statement so drastically. I was saying that I admit to not knowing anything about mdma lol

Unfortunately the majority seems to be that way. Completely against all drugs or one in particular without knowing the facts. I used to think weed would kill me until I one day just decided to do some research for myself. It also helped that the legalisation movement was pushing in the states , which meant I had access to more reliable and up to date studies/resources.

I don't like alcohol or tobacco, from personal experience and because I could argue that it's worse for you than cannabis but I have learned that the people won't be told what to do and what not to do. Education is key.

Wow RB25GT I'm glad you beat the odds ! ... Though I agree all drugs have some or many negatives (depends what we are talking about I guess) , not all people become dependant.

[25RBGT]

No not all but from my experience one thing leads to another

[25RBGT]

Do you spin your weed elchin0?That was the hardest thing to beat. Totally legal ha ha ha.

That's only my opinion after being down the roads I have been down. Better off keeping away.

If you got money for drugs your not spending enough on your car addiction lmao.

[25RBGT]

You know how much tar is in weed man?

[elChin0]

To be honest im not sure what spinning is? LOL mixing it with something else?

I dont have a car atm actually looking for a 34R , in case you find one

I do not actually, but have read that it contains more than cigarettes! I use a vaporiser to try and avoid any negatives from smoke.

[-FIGJAM-]

To be honest im not sure what spinning is? LOL mixing it with something else?

I dont have a car atm actually looking for a 34R , in case you find one

I do not actually, but have read that it contains more than cigarettes! I use a vaporiser to try and avoid any negatives from smoke.

Mr wiz

[Birds]

Can all you drug f**ked weirdos like get a real addiction like exercise and start a build thread in the appropriate section f**k

[-FIGJAM-]

Where is ur build thread then fegget

[Birds]

Already built brah

[Trozzle]

I have tried most of them draw the line at ice and heroin. Many friends and family members have been left in a very fragile mental state.

Weed yeah smoked it for 10 years everyday nothing but eating stupid shit and a little paranoid on occasion.Ice seems to be the one that gets them all.

I luckily grew out of it and thought enough.We all make our own choices as we all control our destiny.

I've made my share of dumb choices but turning my life around is by far the best one I have ever made.

The only sad thing is watching old friends of 20years that didn't.

Btw (alcohol)smoking weed most recreational drugs. I substituted beer for weed. Hell yeah I was dependent on the crap. But still nothing really went wrong. Drinking took over spiralled out of control then. Found my self in hospital waking up after being in a coma on life support for 4 weeks. Then started many years of recovery. Had to learn to walk talk eat look after my self all over again at 26yo.

I woke up docs gathered around and explained how I would never walk again. After years of hard work commitment I proved them wrong.

Morel keep away from all of them legal or not. Don't try them and think you have it under control they control you!

f**k dude that's nuts! I'm not sure I interpreted your post though - what was the cause of the coma? Alcoholism, or something else? Sorry, I'm pretty fkn tired right now haha

Do you spin your weed elchin0?That was the hardest thing to beat. Totally legal ha ha ha.

That's only my opinion after being down the roads I have been down. Better off keeping away.

If you got money for drugs your not spending enough on your car addiction lmao.

We spin our stuff, and yeah I absolutely agree that makes it not only much worse on you (since you're now also smoking tobacco haha) but harder to "give up" as you're also giving yourself a nicotine dependence. Personally I didn't notice any "withdrawals" I'd account to either nicotine or cannabis when I went on a holiday to Thailand, so I suppose my intake is low enough to avoid it hahaha

[Anfanee]

I need no sympathy

Because i'm easy come, easy go....

[Nee-san]

"Impact on society" isn't straight forward, nor is it the same for each drug in question here. Each drug will potentially impact only specific aspects (?) of society, in varying degrees, and not all drugs will impact the same aspects.

I've only provided responses regarding the financial impact of proposed testing booths/stalls at festivals (as that's seemingly the "big issue" flavour of the month right now, and what's triggering this discussion topic in many places).

For the most part, undesired negative impact will mostly come in the form of those who abuse the substances and end up requiring medical/mental treatment (EDIT: this isn't at all in regards to the substances I'm only for decriminalisation of like hard opiates and meth. Their impact reaches well beyond medical). AFAIK the latter would only fall on society/the taxpayer if it were on court orders (this is an assumption). The medical treatment aspect is a hard one - I'm somewhat all for the idea of the user accepting the risks and voiding their public healthcare in the event they f**k themselves up, landing them with the bill if they need treatment. This probably wouldn't work in practice, unfortunately. I highly doubt public health insurance companies will offer a "drug user" level of cover either haha, for many obvious reasons but also because not all drugs are the same.

It is straight forward, this is my point to you.

There is a direct financial impost on the taxpayer for the use of emergency services, hospitals, courts, correctional facilities, increases in both health and insurance premiums and the funding of halfway houses to name but a few.

This does not even go into the indirect costs associated with people taking capacity out of the emergency and life saving services I.E. old betty dies of a heart attack because all the Ambos were busy looking after people getting #shrekt at Stereosonic.

You can argue you're not like that, that drugs can be used safely by some, perhaps they can but when have we ever made the rules for the minority?

The argument regarding smoking and drinking is often brought up, this only really conflates the issue of illicit drug use with more normal activities.

The bottom line is that the Government is able (Particularly with smoking) to recoup some of the direct and indirect costs through increased taxation and excise (That's why a packet of Marlboro is $5.65 in the US and $30+ AUD here)

I know from reading your posts that you're a smart enough guy to see the underlying selfishness in what you're arguing, I'm not being a dick I just don't think you're seeing the full picture.

[Trozzle]

It is straight forward, this is my point to you.

There is a direct financial impost on the taxpayer for the use of emergency services, hospitals, courts, correctional facilities, increases in both health and insurance premiums and the funding of halfway houses to name but a few.

This does not even go into the indirect costs associated with people taking capacity out of the emergency and life saving services I.E. old betty dies of a heart attack because all the Ambos were busy looking after people getting #shrekt at Stereosonic.

You can argue you're not like that, that drugs can be used safely by some, perhaps they can but when have we ever made the rules for the minority?

The argument regarding smoking and drinking is often brought up, this only really conflates the issue of illicit drug use with more normal activities.

The bottom line is that the Government is able (Particularly with smoking) to recoup some of the direct and indirect costs through increased taxation and excise (That's why a packet of Marlboro is $5.65 in the US and $30+ AUD here)

I know from reading your posts that you're a smart enough guy to see the underlying selfishness in what you're arguing, I'm not being a dick I just don't think you're seeing the full picture.

I know, and I DO see the full picture. I DO see indirect costs borne by the taxpayer. If we really sat back and looked at where our taxpayer dollars are actually going though, I think this impact would drop very rapidly down the list of issues with where our money goes. Like I've said before, though maybe not in this thread - I would MUCH rather my tax dollars go to a "dole bludging junkie" or put towards helping other people with their self-inflicted drug problems that I'll never face myself, than I would have it contribute to say the near AU$50 million expense claims by our MPs in the first 6 months of this year.

I know it's not a case of taking issue with one problem or another, and just because we're already pissing money away somewhere else doesn't justify spending more here, but I've had people cut loose over the idea that they might somehow be contributing to testing facilities (since that's the primary goal at this point, after the recent festival deaths), which wouldn't be the case if my perfect world scenario were applicable (volunteer organisations running off their own coin and donations)....but to digress on the topic of "drugs" for a second, this shit makes my blood boil and makes these propose costs look trivial - especially when we consider how much money we'd be SAVING by no longer going to such ineffective measures in our War on Drugs^TM

Our MPs are rolling in our money and people care about a few bucks for drug testing, if that.

Also another interesting article from this morning regarding what XGTRX must unfortunately deal with in his employment:

Staff at Queensland hospitals enduring soaring rate of patient violence, figures reveal

Drunk patients more of a problem than ice: Doctor

Kelly Jenkins has been an emergency nurse for 17 years and currently works at the PA.

"Patients will try and punch out, they will try and kick out," she said.

"We have had instances in the emergency department of people being physically abused."

The pair said that despite the focus on the effects of the drug ice, alcohol remained the biggest problem.

"Ice is devastating to the people who use it, but alcohol would be on a scale of 10 to one what we deal with," Dr Dux said.

"What upsets us the most is it takes resources away from other sick people who don't have a self-induced problem.

"They haven't been out drinking all night and they're critically unwell, yet we're trying to deal with someone who's been violent in emergency and that's probably the most frustrating thing of the whole thing."