Hydrogen Fuel Cell Availability

[warps]

The only real way that hydrogen fuel cells are likely to gain favour is as a means of storing energy. Use solar to generate hydrogen gas, then use the hydrogen to power your car. This does have bona fide applications, and might become a useable application of hydrogen energy.

Generating hydrogen and oxygen from water takes more energy than is released when you ignite the mix (1st 2 laws of thermodynamics). There's no way you can generate it on the fly (it's like hooking up an alternator to the wheel of your electric car and using that to charge the batteries so the car will run forever)

People have been researching this for years, and several have claimed to have made a breakthrough in the process, yet whenever any of them have been asked to prove their claims, they have all fallen flat.

Of course there are those who believe that it's the big oil companies burying the new technology. Just like big pharma are burying cancer cures, vaccines, fluoride and chemtrails contain mind control drugs, and the moon landing was just an american plot to demonstrate superiority over Russia.

[warps]

Just to elaborate - there is no way you can generate enough hydrogen to power the car, without adding extra energy from outside the closed system

[GTRPSI]

Thats the most common argument used.

Google and research a bit about the history of "Stan Meyer", it was my interest in his work (and death) that got me into it.

Interesting how he was offered a lot of money to sell his idea (or suppress it) and when he refused he died with many conspiracy theories following the news.

Hydrogen is also being generated using solar now.

Lots of clips below in the youtube link.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stan+meyers+water+powered+car

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer's_water_fuel_cell

Meyer's death

Stanley Meyer died suddenly on March 20, 1998 after dining at a restaurant. His brother claimed that during a meeting with two Belgian investors in a restaurant, Meyer suddenly ran outside, saying "They poisoned me".^[1] After an investigation, the Grove City police went with the Franklin County coroner report that ruled that Meyer, who had high blood pressure, died of a cerebral aneurysm.^[1] Meyer's supporters continued to claim that he was assassinated in order to suppress his inventions.^[1][2][12]

Edited October 16, 2015 by GTRPSI

[PranK]

I am a bit of a conspiracy theorist. In this case there is a guy whose assumed knowledge could bring down big oil. In my opinion there was no bigger target on the planet.

How are those guys talking about his death. Ergh. Simpletons.

[GTRPSI]

Im Croatian, naturally everything is a conspiracy. (Now you can sort of understand why i got into it)

Looking back at all these clips makes me want to get back into it.

[PranK]

Interestingly, Drive just emailed me this; http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/are-hydrogen-fuel-cells-the-answer-20151013-gk7nec?

EDIT: It is a fuel cell car, not Hydrogen Gas.

[warps]

So a guy claimed to have this fantastic technology then died. Damn you got me.

Whether in gaseous form or otherwise it's still a chemical reaction that creates energy and water. The fact of the matter is that it still takes a lot of energy to make the hydrogen fuel. Once we can improve the process of using renewable energy to generate the hydrogen fuel it will start to become viable.

I know that we have been using solar power to make the hydrogen fuel for as long as we have been using solar power. There's currently no economic way to do it, hence it isn't viable. With more research/investment in the technology it might become viable.

Currently fossil fuel is the cheapest option, hence it's popularity. Simple as that. We will discover new energy technologies, but hydrogen technology in its current form is not it.

[warps]

The most common argument could possibly be because we're bound by the laws of physics, regardless of what people want to believe.

[GTRPSI]

Latest work with Hydrogen generating has turned to high frequency resonance, Stan Meyer was secretly working on this before he passed away.

One mob bought all his toridal design for millions from the family, took it to the US, got investors in and got it working, the US Govt stepped in and shut them up under national securities laws, let it out and its jail, they attempted to move all the work off shore and were stopped.

Not so long ago someone stumbled on it by accident.....

[Kinks]

RF electrolysis, interesting.

[GTRNUR]

I'm not sure if any of you have noticed, but making HH0 gas via electrolysis is a LOT different to what Hyundai are doing with pure Hydrogen in REAL fuel cells. The Hydrogen electric fuel cells produce electricity and drive an electric motor. There is no internal combustion occurring anywhere.

Storing Hydrogen at very high pressure has a degree of explosive risk associated with it, but no where near as much as storing HH0 gas would be.

While a ruptured high pressure hydrogen gas cylinder would spew hydrogen liquid and gas out rapidly and nearly instantly, if ignited it would burn much like normal gasoline. The rate of the burn being contained by the available amount of oxygen in the environment. A good example would be the Hindenburg photos that everyone has seen. Granted a huge power fireball, but still a slow burn. It didn't scatter the air ship over a 10km radius.

Not so with HH0 gas. The perfect mix would allow for instant combustion of the entire fuel container contents. More explosive than any actual explosive you could care to mention short of nuclear. This is why stored HHO gas will never go anywhere in the automotive world.

Once they do master storage of Hydrogen in pressure containers that are incapable o being punctured, which would otherwise result in a massive gas discharge, the door MAY be opened to allow fitment of hydrogen fuel tanks to internal combustion engine equipped cars.

Regarding keeping combustion temps under control to reduce emissions, water injection is the answer to that. It would work well with forced induction too, because you still need to compress air to get enough oxygen for the burn, but no intercooler would be required if you were to inject raw Hydrogen into the cylinders.

[Skepticism]

Splitting water to get hydrogen is always going to consume more energy than you'll get back by burning that hydrogen afterwards. 2nd law of thermodynamics.

If you figure out how to get around that, you're not developing an alternative means of propelling vehicles... you've actually managed to destroy the fundamental principles of physics. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is why time runs forward,and why the notion of cause and effect itself exists in the first place.

It's kind of a big deal.

While a ruptured high pressure hydrogen gas cylinder would spew hydrogen liquid and gas out rapidly and nearly instantly, if ignited it would burn much like normal gasoline. The rate of the burn being contained by the available amount of oxygen in the environment. A good example would be the Hindenburg photos that everyone has seen. Granted a huge power fireball, but still a slow burn. It didn't scatter the air ship over a 10km radius.

Not so with HH0 gas. The perfect mix would allow for instant combustion of the entire fuel container contents. More explosive than any actual explosive you could care to mention short of nuclear. This is why stored HHO gas will never go anywhere in the automotive world.

Just looked up "HHO" gas and it's just a gaseous mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. Sticking a match into it is pretty much the same thing as just burning hydrogen in air. There are plenty more explosive mixtures, usually involving unstable substances or scary oxidisers (that are far stronger than oxygen itself). For example - if the Hindenburg was filled with TNT or say, elemental fluorine things would have quickly become very very interesting for everyone nearby.

Also this shit:

http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_with_dioxygen_difluoride

Edited October 19, 2015 by Skepticism

[GTRNUR]

Just looked up "HHO" gas and it's just a gaseous mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. Sticking a match into it is pretty much the same thing as just burning hydrogen in air. There are plenty more explosive mixtures, usually involving unstable substances or scary oxidisers (that are far stronger than oxygen itself). For example - if the Hindenburg was filled with TNT or say, elemental fluorine things would have quickly become very very interesting for everyone nearby.

Also this shit:

http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_with_dioxygen_difluoride

I disagree with burnign HHO gas as being "pretty much the same thing as burning hydrogen in air". There is a MASSIVE difference between burning hydrogen in air and burning the perfect 2 * H2 + O2 mix.

An example is an experiment that was performed back in Yr12 chemistry.

A steel can measuring about 80cm in diameter and 200 tall had a small hole with a nail made in the bottom, which was then covered with tape. The can was then filled with pure hydrogen by means of disolving aluminium foil in hydrochloric acid in a conical flask with a hose attached. Bulk quantities of H2 gas are made. The can is filled with water, which is then displaced with the hydrogen.

Next the can is held with the hole taped end upright, and placed on the floor on a steel mesh. The tape is removed, and the hydrogen gas lit. The hydrogen burns steadily with the amount of ferocity you would expect from a candle burning parafin wax.

As the gas rises in the can and burns out the top, air containing O2 is drawn into the bottom. The flame slowly burns lower and lower. As it is about to disappear, a whistling sound can be heard. Then when you think the flame has gone out, BOOM! The can is launched from the floor to over 2.7M in the air, leaving a half moon shaped dent in the plaster ceiling.

So from this example we have controled combustion of Hydrogen, vs combustion of hydrogen and oxygen when the mixtures are correct to produce a complete burn instantly.

(I had a cool science teacher)

[PranK]

atest work with Hydrogen generating has turned to high frequency resonance, Stan Meyer was secretly working on this before he passed away.

One mob bought all his toridal design for millions from the family, took it to the US, got investors in and got it working, the US Govt stepped in and shut them up under national securities laws, let it out and its jail, they attempted to move all the work off shore and were stopped.

Not so long ago someone stumbled on it by accident.....

Thats really cool. Doesn't surprise me about the US Governments reaction. They'd be heavily funded by big oil.

Love the dipshit reporter gathering the water himself to prove its just water but theres another 10 cut scenes before they burn it! haha

I'm not sure if any of you have noticed, but making HH0 gas via electrolysis is a LOT different to what Hyundai are doing with pure Hydrogen in REAL fuel cells. The Hydrogen electric fuel cells produce electricity and drive an electric motor. There is no internal combustion occurring anywhere.

Must admit I didn't realise this until after this thread.

you've actually managed to destroy the fundamental principles of physics. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is why time runs forward,and why the notion of cause and effect itself exists in the first place.

It's kind of a big deal.

Haha!

[The Baron]

Ok - I am one of the people involved in getting a Toyota Mirai fuel cell vehicle to Australia for the recent World Hydrogen Technology Conference in Sydney and actually got to drive it today ?

If you want some good details on where the technology is at - I'd recommend googling the Toyota US Mirai site - it has an excellent introduction to the technology.

Suffice to say that I think it's pretty Impressive (335Nm of torque at take off) and just in terms of cost, 5 kg of H2 costs about $50 and gets you about 550 kms......

[The Baron]

View from the dash ?

Ps - anyone know how to rotate I-phone picture?

[jiffo]

I just use rotate a couple of times.

[PranK]

Nice!

So, is this your personal vehicle?

[The Baron]

I wish..... Can't even be refuelled in Australia at the moment - I work for Toyota and we had the car out here for a one tank publicity show.....

[PranK]

Bummer.

What do you know about Hyundai's refuelling station in Ryde?