Workshop Sticky Rant

[Taso84]

Guys,

May I suggest that one of the moderators puts up a workshop sticky that ppl can look at? I've spent 30mins looking for reviews of workshops and every thread seems to get closed with "do a search". Hard to do a search when you close every thread on the topic. It seems to me its a bit of a self fulling prophecy - you dont allow ppl to ask questions on workshops and therefore its become increasingly difficult to find the information.

It shouldnt take this long to find information...and I can assure you, I am a very skilled researcher.

Somebody went to the trouble of putting together this sticky: http://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/228238-read-this-whos-the-best-tunerworkshopresprayerdetaileretc/

I think this quote is hilarious "All threads asking for advice on which workshop to go to will be locked and the thread starter pointed to this thread. Good luck with your modifications, just remember that hard research will increase this "luck""

While I appreciating receiving obvious advice on research and other considerations, I think most ppl would rather a list of workshops and/or links to open threads with useful information and reviews. Perhaps have a look at how they do it on other forums - its not rocket science

Just a suggestion, and apologies for the whinge

Edited October 29, 2015 by Taso84

[Taso84]

Here you go, Ive found a precedent for you to use: http://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/13305-local-wreckers-and-workshops/

Cheez, those Victorians are smart chaps aren't they

[r32-25t]

The problem is there is a certain workshop that is as dodgy as f**k but seems to be very very protected, cause there have been plenty of threads about this particular workshop and they not only get closed but very quickly deleted

[GTofuS-T]

Good in Theory, although when I check the Vic example it's just a list of workshops that can be gained from google or white pages... no reviews, who knows if it's kept up to date with names, phone numbers, reputability, etc (wait let me check... second link (CREATD) doesn't work... )

And naturally there are as many ppl who have had good dealings with any particular workshop as there are who have had bad dealings not to mention, so it would just cause a rift in the community. Then there's the mountain of work for someone to pull together all that info that is already freely available and maintained.

[GTofuS-T]

And despite that magical thread ppl still askin'... http://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/460663-melbourne-bodykit-paint-and-fit/

[IcedTea]

​That'll always be a problem though... search is hard. Shouldn't rule it out just on that.
​I wouldn't mind a workshop review thread tbh...

the ninja deletions are an issue as r32-25t said

[Taso84]

Not sure where the paranoia on getting sued comes from. I'll admit im no lawyer but common sense tells me you can't sue a website owner for users posting reviews on a public website. Why arent other user review websites getting sued? Defamation is such a nothing case lol. You would have to prove 1) the allegations are false and 2) quantify your loss in dollars actually lost. Just doesnt seem credible to me

Ill ask the lawyers to chome in on this one. I honestly thought from a legal perspective we've moved past this.

Also which workshop in question are ppl having issues with? Does it start with c and end in d?

Edited October 29, 2015 by Taso84

[Trex]

Good in Theory, although when I check the Vic example it's just a list of workshops that can be gained from google or white pages... no reviews, who knows if it's kept up to date with names, phone numbers, reputability, etc (wait let me check... second link (CREATD) doesn't work... )

And naturally there are as many ppl who have had good dealings with any particular workshop as there are who have had bad dealings not to mention, so it would just cause a rift in the community. Then there's the mountain of work for someone to pull together all that info that is already freely available and maintained.

nail on the head. I've been to a few workshops who had been recommended by members on here and they were useless.

Jez from Dvs Jez, Gary from Garys Tyres, Clint from CJ's Mechanical are a few places that i will continue to recommend as they have always been fantastic to deal with. They are all in NSW. There was also an engine builder in tuggerah who i forget, he was near the slam factory.

[GoldZilla]

Not sure where the paranoia on getting sued comes from. I'll admit im no lawyer but common sense tells me you can't sue a website owner for users posting reviews on a public website. Why arent other user review websites getting sued? Defamation is such a nothing case lol. You would have to prove 1) the allegations are false and 2) quantify your loss in dollars actually lost. Just doesnt seem credible to me

Ill ask the lawyers to chome in on this one. I honestly thought from a legal perspective we've moved past this.

Also which workshop in question are ppl having issues with? Does it start with c and end in d?

People shouldn't sue the forum owners for what users may have posted about them and/or their businesses, but it hasn't stopped people from trying. Hence why the rule exists.

[25RBGT]

Dvs tuning worth every cent

[25RBGT]

But on central coast nsw

[Nismo 3.2ish]

I think it is very hard to say anything bad about workshops on forums, there are blokes that have good experiences and some not so good from the same shop.

If some blokes can say good things about a shop, the blokes that have had bad experience/s should have the same rights , well?

You should be able to put the facts out there without dumping on the shop and let blokes blokes make their own minds up, but this is also difficult.

[niZmO_Man]

Yes Peter BUT:

People shouldn't sue the forum owners for what users may have posted about them and/or their businesses, but it hasn't stopped people from trying. Hence why the rule exists.

I can understand this, because e.g. SAU:NSW is a registered club, not just some random opinion forum on the Internet.

It sucks that we can't post our experiences of workshops because they can easily sue for defamation/slander/whatever.

[GoldZilla]

There's also the issue of people who hear things and take them as fact, instead of sharing their own first-hand experiences.

There's plenty of the "my girlfriend's dog's breeder's cousin's father-in-law said blah blah blah about Workshop XYZ and the car exploded into mothballs when he tried to do a burnout" kind of people.

There are facts and there are opinions, and some have a hard time distinguishing between the two.

[Nismo 3.2ish]

Yes Peter BUT:

I can understand this, because e.g. SAU:NSW is a registered club, not just some random opinion forum on the Internet.

It sucks that we can't post our experiences of workshops because they can easily sue for defamation/slander/whatever.

Hi Ravi, But if you are just stating what happened with your cars build and you are not being stupid with what you say, you should be able to post the facts. I must say I have been allowed to do this on SAU and other forums without the thread being closed or deleted

When I post I always just state the facts as to what has happened to my car, never made anything up or fiddled with the truth, I do not mention the shop in these posts, trouble is over blokes say who it is and if they are being smart asrses I ask them to stop.

I also understand that when you modify cars not everything goes as planned , "shit happens" and it does.

All I ever want is to get more knowledgeable members to give me some advice. So I post the facts and wait for help.

Trouble is some seem to take it a a personal attack in some way because they have not had a bad experience at the same shop and I can understand this, but they should take the blinkers off before they shoot their mouth off

I understand how a registered club forum can be worried about what people say on the Forum by members, but unless the administration, in some way agree with the post, how is the club liable . They could be asked to remove posts or action will be taken, so they close the thread and another shitty mod job goes under the carpet?

This means only nice cuddly shit can be said about a shop or nothing. Does this mean the Registered club is liable for sending customers to a shitty shop because they removed negative feedback, can the member then sue the Club if they get a bad job and the shop does not take responsibility . Where does it stop and sanity come into play ???????

[Nismo 3.2ish]

There's also the issue of people who hear things and take them as fact, instead of sharing their own first-hand experiences.

There's plenty of the "my girlfriend's dog's breeder's cousin's father-in-law said blah blah blah about Workshop XYZ and the car exploded into mothballs when he tried to do a burnout" kind of people.

There are facts and there are opinions, and some have a hard time distinguishing between the two.

Trouble is when you quote the facts, it is still only your opinion , best of luck if the job to fix is a BIG one and they want dodge responsibility

[Daleo]

There's also the issue of people who hear things and take them as fact, instead of sharing their own first-hand experiences.

There's plenty of the "my girlfriend's dog's breeder's cousin's father-in-law said blah blah blah about Workshop XYZ and the car exploded into mothballs when he tried to do a burnout" kind of people.

There are facts and there are opinions, and some have a hard time distinguishing between the two.

[luke gtr]

Came in to see workshop sticks.

Leaving disappointed.

[Nismo 3.2ish]

Came in to see workshop sticks.

Leaving disappointed.

How about some input Luke, 46,096 posts you must have seen just about everything that has happened for years

What can and can't you say on this type of Forum. Surely we have the right to post results, good or bad without getting SAU in trouble ?

I think you can say just about anything on SAU type forums as long as you do not attack the shop and I for one, ask blokes to stop it if they get too aggressive in their post, all it does is get the thread shut down

[Duncan]

So, to clarify some facts....

1. skylinesaustralia.com is a privately owned website, Christian (Prank) is the owner. He has appointed volunteer moderators and admins to help the site run smoothly. Let's think of it as a benevolent dictatorship with a secret police network.
2. There are a series of state based not for profit clubs like SAU.NSW. Other than using these forums and a big overlap in members, there is no formal link between the clubs and the forums. The forums are member based organisations with elected committees. So people can join them and have their say if they want things to work differently (within the limits of state law and club constitutions)
3. Everyone agreed to the forum rules when they signed up, and they are at the bottom right of every page for forgetful people. In the case of businesses the relevant rule is:

Defamatory remarks made towards businesses or individuals will not be tolerated on this website - We understand that if you have had a bad experience with a business you want to warn other people of said experience. Unfortunately, the same publicly expressed opinion could be viewed as libelous and/or constitute an attempt to deter business from any individual or business. Australian law holds the site owner partly responsible for any defamatory remarks posted on said website, and that is unacceptable. Informing people via PM's is tolerated as it is not a public message. With this said, feel free to post any information about a business or individual that you have had good dealings with.

So, taking that all into account, why should Christian take a personal, legal risk because someone wants to (fairly, or unfairly) make negative comments about a workshop? Over 13 years this forum has been running there have been many, many bad experiences with workshops, lots of them have been posted here, many have led to legal threats and some have started legal proceedings. And yet, because of tight guidelines and quick actions enforcing those guidelines, Christian has not had to defend (or worse, lose) formal legal proceedings which would be very personally expensive. Lots of other forums have come and gone in that time.

As Pete said, the best thing you can do if you want to share a poor experience is to state the facts of what has occurred as you understand them (non-emotional), and do not publically name the workshop in the thread. Pete has in fact had one of the worse experiences I have heard of lately, but both of his threads are still here because they were largely fact based (taking into account many people posted in them) and the workshop was not specifically named. I and other mods had to remove some posts and warn some posters about coming close to breaching rules but overall the threads have not needed to be removed. If the workshop in question contacted the forum and threatened legal action we would probably agree to hide (not delete) the threads, this has certainly happened in the past.

I'd suggest that anyone who wants a place to post whatever negative comments they wist put their money where their keyboard is and start their own forum to do so.