Traction Control & Abs Question

[PranK]

Hi All,

I was driving in my 3 today in the pouring rain. I came to a corner that I have gone around no less than eleventy billion times but this time my little 3 just refused to have traction.

On approach to the right hander which is a comfortable 50kph corner and you can easily get round at 65 odd without pushing, I just lost the back end. I was doing 60 and have reviewed my dash cam footage (which looks pissy in comparison to how I had remembered it)... The front lost everything, I'm not sure if it locked up but I don't remember it pulsing or any ABS interference. The back continued to come around until the front drivers wheel went over the medium (with a big crunch) which is when I regained control and drove back over the medium and the remaining 200m to my house.

There appears to have been no interference from TCS or ABS at all. The rear just came around (oversteer) and the fronts were (likely) just spinning.

My questions are; am I expecting too much from TCS/ABS? If the (front or rear) tyres have shit wet control or if the road has had a spill of some sort, will that just stop any computers from taking control?

I am just concerned that nothing happened. The car just control (or I lost control of the car) and nothing came to my aid. If I was in the Bora, 80 separate computers will have analysed and assisted in everything from traction to window winder controls. Is there an issues with the computers in the 3? Should I be concerned?

Long winded I know, but it just freaked me out a bit.

Thanks guys.

[luke gtr]

It's all good.

ABS, controls braking force only, and only activates over 16km/h.

It sees a wheel that is locked and releases the pressure to that braking circuit to let the wheel roll.

TCS, is like the yin to ABSs yang.

It sees the drive wheels turning faster than the dead wheels, and restricts engine output to slow them down.

What you're thinking about is ESC (electronic stability control)(or similar).

This take into consideration all wheel speed, steering wheel angle, g sensor readings, etc.

It then applies different braking forces to individual wheels to try and put the car where you're trying to go.

All these driving aids are either better or worse depending on tyres.

Good tyres, will help the systems.

Worse tyres, will hinder.

And there are limits to what they can do.

Push too far, and they won't be able to help.

Hope this reply hasn't bored you too much.

But, the more people know about card, the easier my job is.

[PranK]

No, not boring at all. Its the stuff that I've pretended to know about forever.

So, as my car is supposed to have ESC and the video below shows a similar model being tested, this tells me that its potentially tyres?

If the back came around, do we blame the rear? They are older and Falkens (lots of tread) while the front are newer Hankooks.

[luke gtr]

Could be tyres, surface (different asphalt mixes), oil residue, etc.

The wet conditions certainly wouldn't be helping.

[PranK]

Could be tyres, surface (different asphalt mixes), oil residue, etc.

The wet conditions certainly wouldn't be helping.

Ok, you seem very calm. Am I worrying too much about this?

Ie, just slow down in future?

[luke gtr]

Yep.

Drive to the conditions

I've done similar in the dry in the emo.

Knew I could take the roundabout neat my house at x speed.

But, there was dirt all over the road from trucks.

Front slid a little.

Now, I slow down that little but more.

Glad to have helped

[Ben C34]

Stability control can only do so much. It's not magic.

Find a bit of road that's safe to push it a little bit to see what it's capable of doing.

[Ben C34]

That road should be on a closed circuit of course

[PranK]

That road should be on a closed circuit of course

Of course.

Good idea though. I did that in my Bora a few times because I was wary of the abs. If it's still raining tomorrow I'll take it somewhere local and not public.

Thanks

[luke gtr]

Post vids!

[MrStabby]

Remember that ABS and traction control only work on the force that's in the direction of rotation of the tyre. The sideways forces produced by cornering are at 90 degrees to the direction of rotation. So, say you enter a corner with no brakes and no accelerator, then ABS and traction control are useless, and yet its easy to imagine how you could get a sideways slip going on a wet road even though you're not braking or accelerating.

[PranK]

Remember that ABS and traction control only work on the force that's in the direction of rotation of the tyre. The sideways forces produced by cornering are at 90 degrees to the direction of rotation. So, say you enter a corner with no brakes and no accelerator, then ABS and traction control are useless, and yet its easy to imagine how you could get a sideways slip going on a wet road even though you're not braking or accelerating.

Yeah that makes sense. Thanks. It's been so long since I've lost it in the wet I totally flipped out (had kids in the car too.)

I'll post vid once I've gotten it off my dash cam.

[PranK]

The video looks so pedestrian ... It felt like a lot longer.

[niZmO_Man]

Which Falkens? Zeix? If so, there's your problem.

[PranK]

Which Falkens? Zeix? If so, there's your problem.

Cars not here, my wife has it atm. But I'm 90% sure they're Ziex.

I have 4 brand new Conti's on my Bora (currently lifeless in my driveway) but they're slightly too big (225 > 215) which sucks as I'd love to swap them over.

[Leroy Peterson]

hmmm. best to rely on driver training/skill than technology.

Without trying to compromise the lives of yourself and your family, I would try to get used to the laws of FWD. Point the front wheels in the direction you want to go, and power out. It is scary losing the rear in a FWD though.

otherwise, i think this person had the right idea:

[PranK]

So, you're saying I need more wings?

[niZmO_Man]

More aero, yes

But yeah, I'd swap those Zeix out. Never had good experience with them. My brother for some reason put 4 new ones all round on his N15 SSS. Said they're crap haha.

My BNR32 came with them, was a death trap (very used KU31s were much better).

[luke gtr]

The video looks so pedestrian ... It felt like a lot longer.

vids!!!

Doesn't look too bad.

Needed a little more oppo lock.

[MrStabby]

Cars not here, my wife has it atm. But I'm 90% sure they're Ziex.

I have 4 brand new Conti's on my Bora (currently lifeless in my driveway) but they're slightly too big (225 > 215) which sucks as I'd love to swap them over.

Urggh Ziex are legendary for being crap. Change them out straight away, esp on the family car.

If the 225s are an acceptable profile, they may well be fine. Plug the details into the one of those online tyre calcs and see. IIRC +/- 4% in rolling diameter is legal (but check that I remember that correctly).