GTRS turbo or PFC??? advice wanted

[bbenny]

well considering the GTRS would give a good power band, i guess the question is what will give the best power band for money spent.

do you think that a good PFC tune on my 2530 will give a better average power increase than upgrading the turbo and having the ecu re-chipped?

[funkymonkey]

AP Engineering PFC... why... because you can run a PFC without GTR turbo's and get some sort of improvement, and then when you save up and get around to buying the turbo's then you'll be able to use it to its max potential because you have a PFC already.

Personally I'd just go for a VG30 ball bearing turbo and a cheap ECU EEPROM remap.

[Roy]

PFc... talk to ppl like SAS about remapping the std ECU with bigger (550cc?) injectors. The feedback i got was yeh we can do it, but its not what we normally would want to do?!?!?!?

My thoughts.... stick with the 2530, get a Power Fc or Wolf, and see how it goes tuned, as Merli suggests you may find a few mid range dips in torque / power are cured with more flexible management.

...and dont know for a fact, but the guys at Unigroup who have come accross a few RB20s once commented that big turbos with 1 bar of boost, dont make the sorts of hp gains you expect when you throw a few more psi at them.... valve sizes, cam profile ?!?! etc etc seems to mean that whilst you get more power with 18psi then you would 14psi, the jump isnt perhaps as big as you would see on say an RB25.

So in the interest of doing things the smart way id be getting:

1. management,

2. injectors...

Then if your not happy with the power, get some slightly bigger cams with longer duration / higher lift, then look at the power im making before considering a turbo that could flow a few more cfm.

You forget that I also had a GTS-t with next to nothing under 4000rpm I know exactly what you're talking about, and I agree that a powerband of 4000-8000rpm would make for a wonderful car.

(also, I believe the RB26, even with it's longer stroke has a higher rev limit than the RB20 )

How can i forget, you betrayed the brotherhood and went and bought a cheater car ... i think the RB26s can rev harder because of the solid lifters....dont know but i think the mechanics of the RB20 bottom end enable it to potentially rev harder its just that the top end cant keep pace

[bbenny]

funkymonkey, not getting GTR turbos, but the new HKS GT-RS turbo.

this one is way passed the VG30 and re-chip

yeah management would be good, but i am considering this to be "the last upgrade on this car" haha im sure we have all said it a few times, but i want it to be worth while

a new project after this maybe, wouldnt mind a 1JZ powered Chaser at the moment haha

we will see what work is holding around the corner and if it permits, something different would be good. but i have fallen hook line and sinker for the R32

[Roy]

but i have fallen hook line and sinker for the R32

LOL...thats my prob...i like my car and that includes the RB20, i know i can probably get better power easier out of a bigger RB engine, but it aint an R32 GTST in my eyes unless it has an RB20 based heart :Oops:

Fingers crossed my next car will be a company car...then in 2-3 years ill buy me a TVR

Buster...can i ask what your old TD06-20G made and at what boost...i fear that on an RB20 i may only make 230rwkws,

[Sydneykid]

OK, I'm confused.........

Benny is comparing injectors ($600), GTRS turbo ($4K), std ecu tune ($500), pipework (inlet, outlet, dump, water and oil say $500), less sell 2530 for say $1.6K. Total $4K

WITH

a Power FC ($1200) and a tune ($500) Total $1.7K.

I am not surprised that the $4k upgrade will feel "a ton of power" but for 2.5 times as much cost, I would damn well expect that.

To me that's not comparing apples with apples. :wassup:

How about injectors ($600), 2530 turbo ($0K), Power FC ($1200), tune ($500), adj pulleys ($400), a set of KHS 264 @ 9.5 mm cams ($900) and a Datalogit ($600), Total $4K. :aroused:

Now that's a fairer comparison

[Chris32]

OK, I'm confused.........

Benny is comparing injectors ($600), GTRS turbo ($4K), std ecu tune ($500), pipework (inlet, outlet, dump, water and oil say $500), less sell 2530 for say $1.6K.  Total $4K

WITH

a Power FC ($1200) and a tune ($500)  Total $1.7K.  

I am not surprised that the $4k upgrade will feel "a ton of power"  but for 2.5 times as much cost, I would damn well expect that.

To me that's not comparing apples with apples. :wassup:  

How about injectors ($600), 2530 turbo ($0K), Power FC ($1200), tune ($500), adj pulleys ($400), a set of KHS 264 @ 9.5 mm cams ($900) and a Datalogit ($600), Total $4K. :aroused:  

Now that's a fairer comparison  

agreed, bbenny - I have also been thinking long and hard about my setup. My thoughts have varied from fitting a RB26 or RB25, to getting a bigger turbo for my RB20 etc.

I have decided to optimise what I have, and enjoy it.

My setup is very similar to yours (bolt on turbo, stock ecu re-chip etc) and I'd reckon injectors and programmable ecu would be the way to go, then cams etc.

Those turbos are hard to beat on a bolt on Rb20 setup, with programable ecu, injectors (GTR or similar) and maybe some cams to go with your cam gears, there is no reason you cannot get to 240rwkw. The best part about optimisin what you have is you don't have to pay for a new turbo, and everything will be working to its full potential

If you where going to rebuild the motor, port the head etc, it would make sense to get a turbo more suitable to the potential of the rebuilt motor

If you are going to keep the motor stock, and whack a set of cams and injectors in, spend the money on a ecu and make the most of what you already have - it would be a awesome package, with great average power rather than a huge last 1500rpm

Would be a heap of fun and be really respponsive and thats what its all about I reckon

Chris

[Roy]

OK, I'm confused.........

Benny is comparing injectors ($600), GTRS turbo ($4K), std ecu tune ($500), pipework (inlet, outlet, dump, water and oil say $500), less sell 2530 for say $1.6K.  Total $4K

WITH

a Power FC ($1200) and a tune ($500)  Total $1.7K.  

I am not surprised that the $4k upgrade will feel "a ton of power"  but for 2.5 times as much cost, I would damn well expect that.

To me that's not comparing apples with apples. :wassup:  

How about injectors ($600), 2530 turbo ($0K), Power FC ($1200), tune ($500), adj pulleys ($400), a set of KHS 264 @ 9.5 mm cams ($900) and a Datalogit ($600), Total $4K. :aroused:  

Now that's a fairer comparison  

How fresh does your engine have to be to get away with 9.5mm lift cams in an RB20?

Another thing to consider if you go to GT-RS is i hear ppl telling me that my RB20 gearbox wont live behind a TD06, which is rated at a similar power level to the HKS turbo.

Does anyone have a reliable rule of thumb for RB20 boxes, assuming the usual sprung centre clutch, not thrashed/flat changes etc. Ive heard figures of 220rwkws

[Sydneykid]

Hi Roy, I stuck a set of GTR cams in a 170,000K RB20DET, no change valve springs, runs like a beauty. It would probably be worthwhile using a set of upgraded valve springs when going for the 264/9.5mm cams though. :wassup:

Torque is what kills RB gearboxes and RB20 boxes are basically the same as VL turbo ones. So I reckon 260 rwkw is not beyond them, with an RB20 torque curve of course. A 260 rwkw RB31DET would be a different matter. :Bang:

I have seen a few dead RB20 gearboxes, but they have died from abuse and zero maintenance with bearing and synchro failure. I haven't seen one with all the teeth cleaned off 4th gear, like I have in several GTR boxes. :boohoo:

Be brave, avago, plenty of RB20 gearboxes around pretty cheap too.............

[R31 POWER]

I know i'm way off topic but since your here SK.

With the RB20det boxes once they start to whine can a bearing kit be put them or is it the actual gear set that wears?

Mine whines bad and really makes the car not fun to drive coz of that sound

[Sydneykid]

I know i'm way off topic but since your here SK.

With the RB20det boxes once they start to whine can a bearing kit be put them or is it the actual gear set that wears?

Mine whines bad and really makes the car not fun to drive coz of that sound

Usually the bearings kark it due to poor servicing, the Jap's are lousy at changing oil. Bearings are not that expensive, but the box is a bitch to pull apart. If the bearings are really stuffed and it has been driven a lot with them, I have seen the gear teeth with the hardening worn through. While it is apart it is always worthwhile checking out the synchro's. Chances are if the bearings are stuffed, so are the synchros.

You may find when you add it all up, it works out cheaper to grab another 'box. They generally come with warranty, so its a pretty safe option. Quicker as well, in and out in one day. I waited 2 months for some bits last time I pulled an RB25DET gearbox down.

Hope that helps

[bbenny]

regarding the expenses of turbo Vs management

sydney kid said: "Benny is comparing injectors ($600), GTRS turbo ($4K), std ecu tune ($500), pipework (inlet, outlet, dump, water and oil say $500), less sell 2530 for say $1.6K. Total $4K

WITH

a Power FC ($1200) and a tune ($500) Total $1.7K.

I am not surprised that the $4k upgrade will feel "a ton of power" but for 2.5 times as much cost, I would damn well expect that."

the thing is i have access to this particular turbo at a very reasonable price, so i would see maybe a $200 difference between the two options.

so expense isnt really an issue. i guess my opinions for the turbo are being miss read here.

lets start again.

here is the deal. i have the choice of going PFC or GT-RS either upgrade will cost exactly the same. is it still more worth while doing the PFC?

which will give me the best "all round" results. currently the car is my everyday driver, but im looking at spending a bit of time at WSID, so 1/4 mile times are important, yet streetability is also.

i dont want to sound like i have my mind made with gettinga turbo, but i want to hear everyones arguments for either side to help with my decision making.

cheers!

[Merli]

Let me collate the responses then

Stick with the GT2530 and buy the Power FC:

Merli

Roy

Slip

Jay95R33

RedR32

Chris32

People who confused themselves (and me):

funkymonkey

Sydneykid

Get the GT-RS:

[Roy]

Dont worry bbenny, Tatslotto is 18 million this week, ill buy you a GT-RS and a Pfc as long as i get to play with it while i await the delivery of my TVR Sagaris

Do you believe what you read in mags? Zoom issue 35, SR20 with GTR fuel pump, 850cc injectors, Apexi front mount IC, Apexi air filter with a Motec ECU with the stock dump pipe (?) made 220rwkws at 1.4 bar. :Oops:

[funkymonkey]

i'm not confused... i just can't read

[bbenny]

haha roy you would make me a very happy man!

but i would also demand a spin in your TVR.

I tried my luck last night on the pokies, and was suprisingly successful. i increased my bet 20fold. unfortunately i only had a dollar in the machine, so it might take a few more trips to the pokies... but its a sure thing!

[rb20-calais]

in all honesty i have a feeling the GTRS will give 250rwkw, maybe it would with subsancial boost?

I reckon the PFC might be a better option.

Example of my thinking.

My rb20 gearbox shifts well but is very noisy, because I drive the car daily I have just bought an RB25 box. I could of bought an exaust manifold, cams for the same price and had more power, but driving the car wont be as enjoyable.

What I am trying to say is with the PFC as others have said the car will be a joy to drive and with the difference in average power I think you will be happy.

You are making great power as it is.

Good luck,

Evan

[White-R33]

Why not have a look at the Wolf 3d v4, if you haven't already, as an option, someone in this thread already stated that you can have installed, tuned hand controller the lot for under 2000, with pc software etc..

Not trying to confuse things, but might be an option ?

[rb20-calais]

I have a Wolf 3d V4 installed and tuned and its great, I am very impressed with it. I would choose a ECU based on my tuners preference as long as it is a major player in the market. Tuning is everything.

Evan

[Roy]

bbenny, you have PM. CAn you give me a buzz on 0408 409 068