gtr 32 track mods???

[wyld1300]

g'day everybody,

I have r32 gtr that is basically stock except for cat back exhaust, pod filters an 1 bar of boost.

I am wanting to do some track days but are not exactly sure on what mods i am going to have to do to make this possible..... i do know brakes an oil cooler are in need, but what size???

An will I need things like hi pressure oil pump, diff cooler.....

[Roy]

I am wanting to do some track days but are not exactly sure on what mods i am going to have to do to make this possible.....   i do know brakes an oil cooler are in need, but what size???  

Short answer, you dont ned any mods to do track work. However what you do need to do is maintenance. So check your oil/fluid levels are fine, and check the grade of brake fluid and pads you are using.

Really in order to enjoy some laps around the circuits the only things you NEED are good brake pads (i use RB74 and are fine unless you have big power) and food brake fluid (i use AP 5.1)

By the time you do your warm up and cool down laps you normally only get around 4 or 5 laps in...so doesnt stress a road car near as much as say 2 laps of drifting, and remember that the speeds you are doing mean that there is plenty of airflow thru the engine bay.

If you have some coin laying aruond then an oil cooler, 15 row or bigger is a good start, but in a GTR you have an oil temo gauge so just be mndful of the temps you are seeing

[Merli]

Sump baffles :Oops:

[GTRgeoff]

Bloody SBS (sump baffle syndrome) panic merchants. (waves to merli) Don't need them until running slicks or an extreme suspension setup and type R tyres.

What Roy said basically. Don't try be a world beater first time out. Just take it easy and have some fun to see if it's your game. I fyou don't get off on it then you haven't blown a heap of coin for nothing.

[Laurence]

Actually it is worse on stock suspension with R-tyres

[jlnewton]

Mmmmmm, I take my GTST to the track without any hesitation, but the R won't be going near the track until it has at least sump baffles and an oil cooler. (oil cooler goes in tommorow ) Call be a panick merchant but I have heard of too many GTRs being killed at Queensland Raceway for me to take the risk. That being said, I can't wait to take it though!

[Merli]

Bloody SBS (sump baffle syndrome) panic merchants. (waves to merli) Don't need them until running slicks or an extreme suspension setup and type R tyres.

What Roy said basically. Don't try be a world beater first time out. Just take it easy and have some fun to see if it's your game. I fyou don't get off on it then you haven't blown a heap of coin for nothing.

I realise that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that's a very expensive opinion you're waving around And considering you don't have an RB26 or any personal experience with one it's a little hard to understand why you're so steadfast and firm in your comments on the issue :confused:

I have been in the passenger seat of my friend's perfectly healthy 1997 Series 3 R33 GTR, where he's promptly blown the engine on THE WARM UP LAP, whilst using street tyres. That's right, he wasn't even on boost, and wasn't even able to complete a full warmup lap before suffering oil starvation from the oil swishing around from corner to corner. This isn't the only case of it happening either. Ask Duncan what happened to his GTR whilst his sump baffles were sitting in his boot awaiting installation.

On the other hand, I have seen other GTRs complete many a trackday without suffering any adverse effects.

So it's a gamble. Whether or not wyld1300 is willing to take this gamble with his car is upto him, but I certainly would NOT be trying to convince him that there is no danger when there most certaintly IS a chance of oil starvation and seized bottom end. I know I wouldn't want that on my shoulders if his RB26 were to let go and he was faced with a $5000 rebuild due to my advice :Oops:

[Serious-Seven]

I realise that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that's a very expensive opinion you're waving around And considering you don't have an RB26 or any personal experience with one it's a little hard to understand why you're so steadfast and firm in your comments on the issue :confused:

I have been in the passenger seat of my friend's perfectly healthy 1997 Series 3 R33 GTR, where he's promptly blown the engine on THE WARM UP LAP, whilst using street tyres. That's right, he wasn't even on boost, and wasn't even able to complete a full warmup lap before suffering oil starvation from the oil swishing around from corner to corner. This isn't the only case of it happening either. Ask Duncan what happened to his GTR whilst his sump baffles were sitting in his boot awaiting installation.  

On the other hand, I have seen other GTRs complete many a trackday without suffering any adverse effects.

So it's a gamble. Whether or not wyld1300 is willing to take this gamble with his car is upto him, but I certainly would NOT be trying to convince him that there is no danger when there most certaintly IS a chance of oil starvation and seized bottom end. I know I wouldn't want that on my shoulders if his RB26 were to let go and he was faced with a $5000 rebuild due to my advice :Oops:

I have a Aftermarket oil cooler in my FC and it really does help compared to when it had no oil cooler.

Oil coolers can save your bottom end... why not buy one anyway for safety and future safety ? cooler oil will result to longer lasting bottom end.

[Merli]

I have a Aftermarket oil cooler in my FC and it really does help compared to when it had no oil cooler.

Oil coolers can save your bottom end... why not buy one anyway for safety and future safety ? cooler oil will result to longer lasting bottom end.

Although oil coolers are an excellent addition to any car that will see spirited and extended driving periods, it will not by itself stop the oil starvation issues the RB26 has.

It's due to the design of the RB26 sump that has to house the front differential. It causes the oil to move around too much under hard cornering loads, and when you're on a race track, and linking corners nicely with artful weight shifting from corner to corner, it's extremely possible that your oil will just slide from side to side of the sump and never give the oil pickup a chance to suck up any oil for a few seconds at a time.

Again, this is really only an issue with the RB26's sump design, The RB20/RB25 doesn't suffer from this as they don't have a front diff to throw the design of the sump out of whack.

[GTRgeoff]

Merli I've only been racing for a little over 20 years, and have years of experience mechanicing and a mechanical engineering degree to base my opinions on. So I put it to you that ane engine is an engine is an engine and the causes of those types of incidents would be more suspect that simply a chronic design flaw of the GTR vehicle system.

I personally run an extra litre of oil in my engine but tend to base opinion on analytically justified reasoning. At the moment I deal with weapons systems, so lives are at stake every time some of those big guns or guided missiles are fired.

I'll stand by the statement that a GTR with all else being in good condition and correct oil levels will not run the bearings on ZR road rubber. On R type rubber it would be a somewhat different argument and I would consider that marginal.

There are too many GTR's on track with no mods to be scaring people like this with once upon a time stories.

I ran bearings just driving up the main street in traffic, and it was just the engine was a bit tired from too much track work. No warnings it just started rattling but never suffered oil starvation.

GTR's don't handle that well stock to be a concern.

So you tell me what GTR experience a guy who was an importer of Skylines and other impoerts might have had? I'll tell you if you're right.

[Roy]

Merli, i agree that if i had a GTR, then I would want to run a sump baffle. Full Stop End of Story.

Its re-assurance simply in the event that if something did go wrong, well i took some precautions to reduce the incidence of failure.

Now just because i would do it, doesnt mean that its needed, but the debate justifies a bit of caution on behalf of a GTR owner. Thats the emotional side of it

The other side... i am still to see a GTR die at the track, I had heard of Pauls car, and i heard what happened to Duncans car, though i thought that was a tired import problem. How many GTRs rock up to Unique days, and in the last 3 to 4 years of going none have died.

I believe if you have a well cared for GTR then doing a few track days isnt the issue its made out to be (i dont have a GTR so its easy for me to say) ...and i consider myslef about middle of the road as far as driving ability, adn it took me a good two years to even start to drive my car to a point where i the times were indicative of what the car was capable of...though sadly duncan is still 2 seconds quicker in his stock R33

[Merli]

As I said, everyone is entitled to his opinion...

You can call it "once upon a time stories" if you want, but then again, you aren't putting your $6000+ engine on the line are you?

I've heard one too many "stories" and seen the thick white smokescreen eminate from the exhaust and with my own two eyes and heard the swears and curses of the owner of the GTR whilst standing on the side of EC Raceway with the bonnet up and waiting a tow truck to disregard it and pretend it isn't a problem.

But I'm not going to argue with you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect that... especially one founded on 20 years of racing non-GTRs and years of "mechanicing"

[Mick Trainer]

In my experience with GTR's on the circuit use good oil, over fill it by at least a litter and you should be fine on road tyres. To get any really lentgh of laps I find an oil cooler is definatly a good plus but as long as you watch the oil temp closely and are prepared to back off you should be ok.

Mick.

[Merli]

Roy,

I agree. I took my GTR to Wakefield once, a week after I bought it before I realised just how much a gamble I was taking. RB26s aren't cheap to rebuild. My GTR survived that outing just fine.

I also agree that it largely depends on the prior condition of the engine, and that oil starvation issues aren't solely dependant on taking the car to the track. There are a whole host of other factors that can contribute to the big bang that just so happens to occur under the strenuous conditions of racing your car.

I had the unique opportunity to be sitting 1 metre away from Paul as his car let go on the warm up lap, and we all know how much love Paul pours into maintaining his car. Coupled with the fact that it was at the time a fresh model being the latest Series 3 R33 GTR, you can't chalk that one up to a "tired engine".

As for the GTRs that attend UAS trackdays and survive just fine, I wonder how many of those have sump baffles installed? :confused: I do know however, that at the last UAS organised trackday, there were only 4 GTRs in attendance, and I know for a fact that 3 out of those 4 (Geoff Fear, Daniel Caprar, and Gary Burchett) have sump baffles. I'm unfamiliar with the 4th GTR owned by Joe Evans.

Perhaps that's why those GTRs seem to survive UAS trackdays so easily?

[Sydneykid]

I have personally seen 3 GTR's die from oil starvation.

#1 R32 GTR did 3 laps of Oran Park on road tyres, it was a fresh engine, with 1 litre over the full make on the dipstick and an oil cooler fitted. Inexperienced driver, first lap very slow to see where the track went. Second lap a little faster, what I would call a warm up lap. Third lap second corner, #5 conrod exits block.

#2 R33 GTR, Eastern Creek, lap #2. On road tyres, experienced driver, oil cooler fitted, don't know the oil level. Huge big end knock after 4 laps, fortunately everything stayed inside the engine on this one.

#3 R32 GTR, running in big power (and $'s) engine, ran big end bearings and seezed inlet camshaft due to lack of oil after 5 laps at Wakefield Park. Running R type tyres, very good suspension and experienced driver, oil cooler and overfilled sump.

Roll the dice guys, sometime you win, sometimes you don't

[benm]

You can't tell me that some "warm up" laps at Oran Park, EC, Wakefield is any harder on a GTR then some "spirited driving" thru Wisemans Ferry, Kangaroo Valley etc?

Hell. . . the in/out roads of the housing estate I live in has more corners (and tighter corners) which I drive my car through everyday than any of the tracks listed above. Sure im only doing 50-80km/h but maybe some "No GTR Zone" signs should be installed on these roads if the sump design is so poor that these GTR's are dieing at such low strain.

[Roy]

Sure im only doing 50-80km/h but maybe some "No GTR Zone" signs should be installed on these roads if the sump design is so poor that these GTR's are dieing at such low strain.

LOL...its one of those things, if you get away with it you will laugh at the guys doing it...if it bites you in the a55 then the others will be laughing saying i told you so.

As for the GTRs that attend UAS trackdays and survive just fine, I wonder how many of those have sump baffles installed?  I do know however, that at the last UAS organised trackday, there were only 4 GTRs in attendance, and I know for a fact that 3 out of those 4 (Geoff Fear, Daniel Caprar, and Gary Burchett) have sump baffles. I'm unfamiliar with the 4th GTR owned by Joe Evans.

Perhaps that's why those GTRs seem to survive UAS trackdays so easily? .

I think Joe works with or is somehow associated with SSS, and if im thinking of the right car it has twin 2835s, so im willing to bet money that it has as aftermarket sump arrangement. So your right about the cars that attended this year.

But previous years there have always been a bunch of GTRs, largely std and i can confidently say that Geoff Fears car would have been about the only GTR running a baffled sump....Come to think of it, the BD4s R34 gets bashed around by Lunatic Luff and Rick Shaw, along with Paul and Tom giving it a punt, so does the R33 and last time i saw them they werent running baffled sumps.

Its one of those things....ill stick with me GTST, aint as quick but still plenty of fun

[Roy]

And speaking of GTSTs, what about GTS-4s? I have seen a few of these being thrown around tracks...would you expect the same problems?

[GTRgeoff]

So perhaps it is a chronic design flaw. But even SK would have to admit that the number of GTR's that would catastrophically fail on road tyres at the track would be in the very low end of overall track failures, and similar numbers would be revealed on the road. I've seen a few that blew holes in pistons from leaning out, but RB25's are even more common in that area.

After taking yet another hard look at the sump design it is still a concern to me that oil surge is the primary culprit. So lets perhaps attempt to establish a database on the forum of engine failures and the suspected causes. Can it be attributed to a particular circumstance (track/corner/style of driving), a particular grade of oil or other environmental factors. We know the inherent weakness of RB25 pistons when exposed to detonation. Are GTRs commonly getting away with a little more detonation due to the piston strength. The follow on effects are increased impulse energy through the conrod, putting excessive compressive loads on the big ends and bearings that can penetrate the dynamic oil cushion.

When rallying toyotas I found that the 18RG engine was fine for road use but in competition was prone to blowing head gaskets. The eventual solution was to torque the head 20ft/lb beyond recommended. That seems pretty extreme given the bolts/threads as designed are usually close to limit but there was at least that safe extra torque in the design. We still had 3 spare engines, just didn't need them all.

Our other solution is to completely stop all of our friends from taking a GTR on the track or any "spirited" cruises where corners get in the way until they spend around $2-3K getting a sump baffle installed, and that will be a sad thing.

Lets not leave it a roll the dice option when we may be able to do something about it. Heres my starter thread: http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/sh...4864#post944864

[Amaru]

Just a quick question, I am keen to get around wakefield but not keen to tempt fate by not running sump baffles (and thats my personal choice so please dont say just take it out and see how it goes - $5000+ is too much to gamble for my liking ).

My main question is... is it possible to get the sump off with the engine still in the car? Doing no other work besides putting the sump baffles in.

Any info would be appreciated