gtr 32 track mods???

[GTRgeoff]

Amaru, the sump can come out with the engine in, but you have to remove the cross member that holds the engine up, so a cross brace has to be fabricated to hold up the engine while the job is done. On top of the cost of the baffle or modified sump there will be up to $1K in labour/manufacturing depending on the workshop.

The sump baffle will prevent oil surge around the sump and pressure loss under extreme cornering forces, not high temperatures. For temps you need an oil cooler.

Going off SK's worst case of a conrod snapping, that would leave almost nothing reusable on the engine (I've been there a few times before) and a second hand RB26 is around $7K complete plus labour, so yeah, this is a pretty expensive fix sometimes, hence my desire to quantify the problems and solutions in a nice neat thread.

Carrying on, I had a little Corolla road car with the 1.5 engine (4K) that I ha twin webers on and high compression ratio. I had a little smoke from the exhaust on a long drive and at the next servo put some Wynns product in to stop it. I put it in while stopped but the product was pretty cold and thick. Then I started the engine and within 10km it had snapped #4 conrod and punched 4 holes in the block and sump. The piston was 3/4" thick. The destruction is violent and final when you put a "leg out of bed". I will never use another engine additive other than good quality oil after that experience. Was stuck 10km out of Warwick in Qld for 12 hours waiting for a mate with a trailer. I don't wish that on anyone. Especially GTR owners.

[GTRgeoff]

Just for info, here is the JUN site with their baffle. http://www.junauto.co.jp/products/cylinder...html?en#oilpump

There is also a place in Melbourne that fabricates a new sump for GTR that is larger capacity and baffled for around $900. Yellow pages is your friend. I can't remember who they are.

[Amaru]

Amaru, the sump can come out with the engine in, but you have to remove the cross member that holds the engine up, so a cross brace has to be fabricated to hold up the engine while the job is done. On top of the cost of the baffle or modified sump there will be up to $1K in labour/manufacturing depending on the workshop.

Could the engine not be held by a engine hoist/crane for the time it would take to remove the sump, put the baffles in, and put the sump back on?

Thanks for your info

EDIT: Oh and does anyone run the Tomei sump baffle, or have any reccomendations, e.g if one is better than another...

[fatz]

over rev the engine and you will kill it

you cant run 8.5k on a gtr with a standard sump while cornering at high load

it will die

why do gtr driver have to rev it past 7.5... if you car has decent turbos you should have enought pull shifting at 7.5k.. furk its onlylap sprints

7k and your gtr engine will survive long and hard

my gtr engine has complete 200 laps at sevreal track

but if i was taking it raceing (combined touring) and had to rev it that extra 1.5k sump baffels will be straight in over capacity oil fill ect

[GTRgeoff]

Could the engine not be held by a engine hoist/crane for the time it would take to remove the sump, put the baffles in, and put the sump back on?

Thanks for your info

EDIT: Oh and does anyone run the Tomei sump baffle, or have any reccomendations, e.g if one is better than another...

You could but still need room underneath to work and it's bad practice to hold a load on a crane or hydraulics while someone is underneath so the brace is the best/safest solution. Also bonnet might have to come off for lifting the engine slightly so the weight can be transferred to the brace and off the engine mounts but that is a couple of minutes.

[Amaru]

Ok thanks for that info, will go talk to my mechanic this afternoon. On a side note, the engine has been rebuilt already around 15,000km's ago (forged pistons, shot peened rods with arp bolts was all that was done bottom end) but mine and the engine builders knowledge of SBS was lacking at the time, and as a result... no sump baffles were installed

[GTRgeoff]

I'm also going to make some specific enquiries in Melb with engine builders regarding the failure rate of RB26's.

Pity you didn't get one in at the right time. What did this build cost, out of interest?

[Mick Trainer]

over rev the engine and you will kill it

you cant run 8.5k on a gtr with a standard sump while cornering at high load

it will die

why do gtr driver have to rev it past 7.5... if you car has decent turbos you should have enought pull shifting at 7.5k.. furk its onlylap sprints

7k and your gtr engine will survive long and hard

my gtr engine has complete 200 laps at sevreal track  

but if i was taking it raceing (combined touring) and had to rev it that extra 1.5k sump baffels will be straight in over capacity oil fill ect

So very true.

[wyld1300]

So very true.

whats everyone views on hi psi oil pumps ???

[Sydneykid]

You can't tell me that some "warm up" laps at Oran Park, EC, Wakefield is any harder on a GTR then some "spirited driving" thru Wisemans Ferry, Kangaroo Valley etc?  

Hell. . . the in/out roads of the housing estate I live in has more corners (and tighter corners) which I drive my car through everyday than any of the tracks listed above. Sure im only doing 50-80km/h but maybe some "No GTR Zone" signs should be installed on these roads if the sump design is so poor that these GTR's are dieing at such low strain.

Hi Benm, our GTST is pulling over 1g off the bridge at Oran Park for ~ 1.5 seconds at 6,000 rpm and acceleratiing to ~7,000 rpm in 3rd gear. That's ~150 kph! I don't think you are going to be doing that anywhere on the road. It's the combination of g force, oil temp and time that allows the oil to get away from the pick up and stay there for long enough to allow the pump to pick up air. In that ~1.5 seconds the engine will complete ~180 revolutions. You only need a handful of those to run a big end bearing dry of oil.

There are 4 things involved here;

*g force

*engine rpm

*oil temperature

*time

Despite trying for many years I have never been able to duplicate all 4 on the road, like we do on the track.

[GTRgeoff]

Hi Benm, our GTST is pulling over 1g off the bridge at Oran Park for ~ 1.5 seconds at 6,000 rpm and acceleratiing to ~7,000 rpm in 3rd gear. That's ~150 kph! I don't think you are going to be doing that anywhere on the road. It's the combination of g force, oil temp and time that allows the oil to get away from the pick up and stay there for long enough to allow the pump to pick up air. In that ~1.5 seconds the engine will complete ~180 revolutions. You only need a handful of those to run a big end bearing dry of oil.

There are 4 things involved here;

*g force

*engine rpm

*oil temperature

*time

Despite trying for many years I have never been able to duplicate all 4 on the road, like we do on the track.

I have to agree wholeheartedly. There is no way road driving, even targa, is going to be as severe as a track on running the engine to limits in high G cornering. On the track the driver is constantly looking for those extra tenths so everything goes to the limit and beyond. This is also the reason I prefer to do trackdays in my car instead of road rallies as I can work toward that perfect lap, but being older and hopefully wiser I am afraid of those big trees (and bustops for MinesDatsun) off the sides of road.

There is a story of a sharp dipper at Nurburgring that puts a lot of G's on the oil pickup and it has killed plenty of engines as the oil vaporises under the load. Similar to water in a vacuum, it just starts bubbling and runs bearings.

[benm]

I wasn't trying to say that if you take your GTR on a quick lap thru my housing estate it may not survive, what i meant was that if you did that twice a day for 2-3yrs surely it's going to drop the lifespan of a GTR engine? so that when you eventually do hit the track it only takes a few laps to bring it to an end.

[Sydneykid]

I wasn't trying to say that if you take your GTR on a quick lap thru my housing estate it may not survive, what i meant was that if you did that twice a day for 2-3yrs surely it's going to drop the lifespan of a GTR engine? so that when you eventually do hit the track it only takes a few laps to bring it to an end.

I understand what you mean benm, but oil starvation is pretty much always instant death. There is no drop in the lifespan of bearings over time due to zero instantaneous oil pressure. If it has oil pressure then the bearing lives, if it has no oil pressure (even for a handfull of revolutions) it will die. Over time bearings wear just from normal use, the more combustion pressure, the quicker the wear. Bit that's not the same as oil starvation, maybe that's why I am a bit paranoid about it :Paranoid:

Hope that makes sense

[Scooby]

I understand what you mean benm, but oil starvation is pretty much always instant death.  There is no drop in the lifespan of bearings over time due to zero instantaneous oil pressure.  If it has oil pressure then the bearing lives, if it has no oil pressure (even for a handfull of revolutions) it will die.  Over time bearings wear just from normal use, the more combustion pressure, the quicker the wear.  Bit that's not the same as oil starvation, maybe that's why I am a bit paranoid about it :Paranoid:  

Hope that makes sense

Sydneykid;

That being the case, do you run a winged/baffled or just baffled sump?

Can you recommend a product ie Tomei or Jun or Perf Metalcraft or perhaps just some design parameters we should look for?

Are there any installation problems on an R32 GTR associated with going winged that would make it not worth while for other than serious track addicts?

Anyone else care to comment?

Thanks

[justinfox]

Man just when you think you're seeing the end of the need for cash spent on a GT-R you come across a thread like this?!

The GT-R was made to race right? It's a race car. I can't believe I've had to do so much to it to get it to be a race car!!!

Brakes: Definitely suck on my R32 GT-R and I'm still trying to get them to bite. I've resorted to ordering Racebrakes's best track pad at $710 a full set (damn it).

Intercooler pipes: 1st track day, no boost restrictor and the driver side intercooler pipe blows off. It's a common problem apparently and happens all the time. WTF?! I have spent $880 on replacing all rubber pipes with a full HKS piping kit and invested big cash into an Apexi boost controller.

Tyres: Yoko Grand Prix DNA tyres are no-where near good enough. I have just put on a set of Dunlop's best tarmac rally semi-slicks. $1500!!! Ouch but damn are they sticky or what?! Makes the car feel tight and small like driving a little mini now!

Noticed my oil temp going up high last track day so I just bought an HKS Oil Cooler Kit w/Remote mount: $800

And now this sump baffle stuff?! Argh! All the cash I am making is going into this car which I only drive on track and the occasional weekend. Am I complaining though? Well yes... a little but damn I love my car! This GT-R's a keeper. What an amazing machine!

[Merli]

Justin.. The initial purchase cost of a GTR is just the start

[Snowman]

My input (but I know nothing!)

I have a GTR. - minor mods (250kw@wheels) but also suspension.

It has an oil cooler.

It runs semi-comps.

I go as hard as I can on the track.

It doesnt have sump baffles. My mech says it doesn't need it - and he's owned several (including 3 at once at one stage)

Engines still ok. But i try and shift around 7,500rpm (shift light is set to 7,000)

Gearbox is another story.

Will look at sump baffles once I get over 300kw's.

[GTRgeoff]

Team I'm still running pretty short on responses in the busted engine thread. 84 views and I'm the only poster. There are guys here who have seen the destruction and can get the ball rolling. Be honest and if necessary highlight the deficiency of the human component as with both of my engine failures.

[Duncan]

haha don't worry Geoff, I've got a couple to post up in there once they are opened up to check exactly what happened

justin, you reckon a track car is expensive....try building a race car :wassup: they are a great car but they are not perfect...and more to the point they are getting older....

[Silver-Arrowz]

GTR = money + headaches.

Time to get a volvo.