Food For Thought Fuel System

[MJTru]

Hi guys. Im very concerned about my fuel set up. First off i know what a scavenging pump sounds like.

I have 2x 044 feeding my fuel rail via a gravity tank that fed by a big aeromotive fuel pump. All returns are to the gravity tank and goes throuh a big fuel cooler on the return side

As i drive i can hear the pumps sounding like there scavenging or grabbing a bit of air. Im wondering if my pickup pump (aeromotive) is mest up and grabbing air. I wouldnt know how as its lower than the cell itself. Im stumped. After an hour drive of Crousing i would feel the fuel cooler and it seems way to hot. Any ideas. Here is a few photos os the.

I think another problem would be that my oil line to my accusump it strapped to my fuel lines under the car so the heat might be transmitted to the fuel line form the oil line. Whats the normal temp i should be looking for at the fuel lines. Or cooler. Thanks.

[HarrisRacing]

Couple of questions:

1) are pumps staged at all? Or on any kind of pwm?

2) what kind of filters are you running and what size fuel lines?

3) can you get us actual fuel temps?

4) how much power are you or do you intend to make?

Those 044s are pretty big pumps. You have enough fuel for 1200HP on E85 or 1500HP on gasoline. If I were you I would stage one of them to where it comes on past 4k rpms and only past 15 psi boost. But make sure you have check valves on them.

[ido09s]

why the hell do people install fuel systems like this? could be so much simpler and just as effective, not to mention cheaper as well to setup

How much power does the car make? and why does it need such an elaborate fuel system? I am assuming the person who built the fuel cell hasn't baffled it nor built into it any way of being able to install an intank fuel pump

If I were you, piss it all off and start again. I am sure its not what you want to hear but that's what I would do. Simple is ALWAYS better!!!!

Put one 044 in the tank at most. It shouldn't need that but if its there and you know how old it is use it. I would put the filter between the tank and the surge for simplicity sakes. Leave your surge tank and the 2 044's and let them feed the fuel rail directly. If you want the fuel cooler leave it and plumb it into the return line from the engine to the surge but remove the contact with the oil cooler hoses as that will definitely be transferring heat to the fuel lines. As mentioned above if its still a concern have one 044 switched through the ECU and come on at a selected boost/tps/rpm setting. Your car will also be lighter and your pocket would have had more cash in it

Ultimately though, if you think your scavenge pump is picking up air from the fuel tank it can only mean one thing, the fuel tank isn't baffled properly and needs to be done again.

Also GROMMETS!!!!!! I can see braided fuel line going straight through holes in the spare wheel well. I don't care if its stainless braid, they need to have grommets to protect them!!!!!!

Edited May 15, 2016 by ido09s

[KiwiRS4T]

And maybe its just the photo but the fuel cooler (if that's what the radiator is for) looks to be very close to the exhaust pipe.

[MJTru]

Ok guys guess what i did it just cause i wanted to its all over kill. Like way over kill. But guess what for me it was all about the god damn Internet teasing me and me not knowing how to manage my needs and wants. Sorry for being human. Lol. I know its close to the exhaust much less over kill and way to big for the setup. I wa planning on going e85 and having the car tuned in the states soon. I have 8 more months or so before i can legally ship the car to the states to have it tuned. As for now the only good side to this is the learning curve. I wouldn't argue wit anyone of your comments as your all right. All what you guys say i have done for example the first time i posted my first mistakes. My r33 gsts on this site and claimed to have 600hp. I was told how to use YouTube and step by step how to change the title to my video. To reflect that its not 600hp. Wow. Lol i will never forget that day.

Ill do my best to answer your questions. I use all bulk head fitting to go through the floor so no need for grommets. Next the pumps run number 8 line to 2 filters under the car. 8an in and 6 an out to the fuel rail. Then a number 8an return to the cooler and from the cooler to the gravity tank(surge) and over flows to the cell all the time. At first it was returned to the cell but i noticed that the 2 044 pumps pump more that the aeromotive pump can supply to the surge tank. I find this wierd. As it should fill it up under no load. Next the system isnt staged. Both pumps run full time. But the idea is a good one. Im running a power fc right now and will be switch to my ps2000 haltech once it goes to the states. As for pwm i dont believe these pumps can do that. The aeromotive pump runs off the stock fuel pump signal via a 50 amp relay that turns it on. Stock fuel pump was just used for a signal. The two 044 pumps have a switch, a signal that turns on 2 50 amp relays to turn them both on.

As an additional side note i will shield the exhaust heat away from the cooler. And separate my accusump line from my fuel lines as there all tied together and can exchange heat.

Edited May 16, 2016 by MJTru

[Piggaz]

I would be wary about 044's on E85. They don't seem to like it.

[MJTru]

The olny line that throught the spare wheel is the breather hose. Thats the only one without a bulk head fitting. Thats was an old photo but there is a grommet there now.

[HarrisRacing]

Ok guys guess what i did it just cause i wanted to its all over kill. Like way over kill. But guess what for me it was all about the god damn Internet teasing me and me not knowing how to manage my needs and wants. Sorry for being human. Lol. I know its close to the exhaust much less over kill and way to big for the setup. I wa planning on going e85 and having the car tuned in the states soon. I have 8 more months or so before i can legally ship the car to the states to have it tuned. As for now the only good side to this is the learning curve. I wouldn't argue wit anyone of your comments as your all right. All what you guys say i have done for example the first time i posted my first mistakes. My r33 gsts on this site and claimed to have 600hp. I was told how to use YouTube and step by step how to change the title to my video. To reflect that its not 600hp. Wow. Lol i will never forget that day.

Ill do my best to answer your questions. I use all bulk head fitting to go through the floor so no need for grommets. Next the pumps run number 8 line to 2 filters under the car. 8an in and 6 an out to the fuel rail. Then a number 8an return to the cooler and from the cooler to the gravity tank(surge) and over flows to the cell all the time. At first it was returned to the cell but i noticed that the 2 044 pumps pump more that the aeromotive pump can supply to the surge tank. I find this wierd. As it should fill it up under no load. Next the system isnt staged. Both pumps run full time. But the idea is a good one. Im running a power fc right now and will be switch to my ps2000 haltech once it goes to the states. As for pwm i dont believe these pumps can do that. The aeromotive pump runs off the stock fuel pump signal via a 50 amp relay that turns it on. Stock fuel pump was just used for a signal. The two 044 pumps have a switch, a signal that turns on 2 50 amp relays to turn them both on.

As an additional side note i will shield the exhaust heat away from the cooler. And separate my accusump line from my fuel lines as there all tied together and can exchange heat.

Hey I know what you mean about the mean comments. Read my build thread it's full of some ridiculous mistakes.

My questions were honest questions and here is what I would recommend.

Ahhh I forgot we talked about your haltech offline a while back and I see now that you are not on that yet....in the meantime I would:

1) Buy a boost pressure switch and run a separate relay for one of your pumps. Make sure the "switched" pump has check valve on the outlet to prevent the first from backflowing into it. Make this pump come on at 15 or 20 psi boost. I say this because I don't know any turbo setup that can outflow a single 044 on only 20 psi boost on an RB. This way only one pump is running most of the time which will cut flow and regulator work in half (thus reducing friction-causing heat transfer and other heat transfer from the intake / fuel rail). Then when the boost goes over 15-20 it gives you the ultimate flow.

As an engineer, I like an adequate design...as a hot rodder I like overkill!

My car is a single Deatschwerks in tank DW300 and an aeromotive A1000 regulator with only -6 lines and 800cc injectors...I'm pretty sure it will keep up with my 8374 on stroker motor on pumpgas. Also I am running a pressure sensor to the fuel rail for my Haltech to sense a loss in pressure and protect the engine under boost. You will love that haltech!

[ido09s]

Ok guys guess what i did it just cause i wanted to its all over kill. Like way over kill. But guess what for me it was all about the god damn Internet teasing me and me not knowing how to manage my needs and wants. Sorry for being human. Lol. I know its close to the exhaust much less over kill and way to big for the setup. I wa planning on going e85 and having the car tuned in the states soon. I have 8 more months or so before i can legally ship the car to the states to have it tuned. As for now the only good side to this is the learning curve. I wouldn't argue wit anyone of your comments as your all right. All what you guys say i have done for example the first time i posted my first mistakes. My r33 gsts on this site and claimed to have 600hp. I was told how to use YouTube and step by step how to change the title to my video. To reflect that its not 600hp. Wow. Lol i will never forget that day.

Ill do my best to answer your questions. I use all bulk head fitting to go through the floor so no need for grommets. Next the pumps run number 8 line to 2 filters under the car. 8an in and 6 an out to the fuel rail. Then a number 8an return to the cooler and from the cooler to the gravity tank(surge) and over flows to the cell all the time. At first it was returned to the cell but i noticed that the 2 044 pumps pump more that the aeromotive pump can supply to the surge tank. I find this wierd. As it should fill it up under no load. Next the system isnt staged. Both pumps run full time. But the idea is a good one. Im running a power fc right now and will be switch to my ps2000 haltech once it goes to the states. As for pwm i dont believe these pumps can do that. The aeromotive pump runs off the stock fuel pump signal via a 50 amp relay that turns it on. Stock fuel pump was just used for a signal. The two 044 pumps have a switch, a signal that turns on 2 50 amp relays to turn them both on.

As an additional side note i will shield the exhaust heat away from the cooler. And separate my accusump line from my fuel lines as there all tied together and can exchange heat.

Apologies if my comment came across a bit strongly, it was never my intention to upset you Its just fuel systems like this introduce so many areas for problems, and it really doesnt need to be this way.

My own car makes 485rwkw on E85 and has the basic system i describe above. Its over engineered like the rest of the car and i dare say will cop the 550+ we are about to throw at it without running out of fuel. I dont however run the staged pumps nor have them controlled through the Link ECU i use. I just let it all run constantly. The fuel gets warm but i am yet to install the GReddy oil cooler i plan on using as a fuel cooler. I really should get onto it though.

I would be wary about 044's on E85. They don't seem to like it.

8 years now on E85, 3 x 044's and not an issue. I dont see what the problem is?

The olny line that throught the spare wheel is the breather hose. Thats the only one without a bulk head fitting. Thats was an old photo but there is a grommet there now.

Awesome!!!! Always scares me when i see no grommets!!!! You would be surprised how many people dont use them!!!!

[KiwiRS4T]

BTW what's the capacity of your surge tank (bit hard to tell from pic) - I used a 4 Litre tank.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Overkill but not done right tbh.

That fuel cooler is in a horrid position with no cover or anything. A small rock or even a speed hump or coming off the track would smash that to bits and you'll have fuel and shit going everywhere.

So you're not using your oem tank and using the fuel cell?

Or you're using your oem tank and also using the fuel cell that runs to a surge tank?

[MagicMikeZ32]

All fuel rail returns should be back to the surge tank to keep the surge tank full.

My surge tank overflow (return to main tank) goes through a fuel cooler.

OP's posts confuse me in regard to the plumbing layout in use exactly.

[MJTru]

Sorry for the late reply. The hose with no grommet is a drain hose. And that was an old photo. Before the car hit the road it was replaced with a buld head 90 fitting. The surge tank is a 2 liter tank. Regularing tank baffling i notice the tank came with a foam inside. I could be wrong but i cant see grading air. As for staging the pump i might just do that to keep heat down.

I had a feeling that the fuel system is over kill when i was doing it. But it done and i have to learn and move on. Taking it out isnt an option, but learning and moving on as well as not making the same mistakes is key. Can you go into some deatails of your so simple fuel system that your running as im after 900hp in my new build on my r33 gtr. Its being ripped apart as we speak, i figure before im done this one the r32 will reach the 25 year band period that will alway it to be shipped to the states. Where i wont have to go through all these red tapes if i was to have it shipped there now. Its very close by and its no big deal either way just less paper work.

If i can ask? As i take nothing to heart and dont expect to be babied. Im a big boy. Lol. So bad or good i dont care. What would be one of the simplest and effective way of attaining a 900hp goal retaining the stock tank. Ive seen some pump options out there but to be fare if your saying its over kill then by all means please explain your entire fuel set up for me please.

Im all ears. Seems every car i build i make mistakes which is understandable. I hope my r33 wont be that much of a mistake as its my favorite one. I will take my time on this one.

As for the r 32 im planning on moving the accusump line away from the fuel lines. Next. Ill stage the pumps as menstioned. Ill also add a shield for the exhaust and the fuel cooler. I have a new pump and will replace the lift pump (aeromotive one)

Thanks for your comments.

[KiwiRS4T]

Haven't done the calculations but I suspect at full WOT you could empty a 2L surge tank (especially since it probably has an effective capacity of about 1.5L). 4L tanks are cheap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111435410660?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[MJTru]

Haven't done the calculations but I suspect at full WOT you could empty a 2L surge tank (especially since it probably has an effective capacity of about 1.5L). 4L tanks are cheap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111435410660?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Hmmm. I would agree but the return from the fuel rail returns to the surge tank and the surge tank over flows back to the cell. In that setup do you think it will still empty the surge tank.

[KiwiRS4T]

Hmmm. I would agree but the return from the fuel rail returns to the surge tank and the surge tank over flows back to the cell. In that setup do you think it will still empty the surge tank.

Well a long pull at WOT would see a lot of fuel going through the injectors and not much to be returned. Although I see you have a grunty primary pump.