$2-3k Coilovers - Dms Street, Mca Red & Bilstein Pss9

[JGTC]

Looking to upgrade from stock suspension, car is a 300kw street car and duty will be 70/30 street/track.

DMS, MCA and Bilstein all have local aus. support for parts/rebuilds, the bilsteins PSS9 have the most feedback and well known. The MCAs and DMS are big names in motorsport, however these consumer 'street/track' models are relatively less known and tested.

The DMS Streets $2600 are probably the best specification wise with 2-way adjustable bump and rebound. They are also made in-house in aus, this probably means they will be more expensive to service.

The MCA Reds - $2700 have custom valving and spring rates to suit your application. And have very good local service. Imported housings and springs make them cheaper to own.

Bilstein PSS9s - $2200 are 1-way adj. and are the most known and tested, and as heasmans can source, install and dial in/cornerweigh.

Keen to hear feedback from anyone who had a similar budget and application, im leaning towards the DMS gear but am wary of their service/rebuild costs.

Edited June 12, 2016 by squareznboxez

[Dasmbo]

I have a r33 with 350kw and I have tried several coil-overs but finally went with the tein coil-overs with the electronic dampening control and found them very good and you can change the dampening from inside the car much better ride on road and you can stiffen them at the touch of a knob and you can purchase kits for them or send them to fulcrum suspension for repairs if needed.

[JGTC]

Thanks mate, yes they aren't bad option also.

[Ben26]

Without starting a new thread, I am also interested in opinions regarding DMS street coilovers as these can be had for r32 gtst for $2400. Has anyone used these and if so, what spring rates did you go with an how hard is it to setup the rebound / compression ? Also looking for opinions on what springs rates people think would work well with hankook rs3 / federal rsrr tyres, 24mm whiteline sway bars and mainly hard street / light track work ?

Cheers in advance

[GTSBoy]

I can't comment on the DMS dampers directly, but my input on the latter parts of your questions are that I have what amounts to Kings R32 GTR springs on SydneyKid B6s on a 32 GTSt. The front springs are >5 kg/mm (but I can't recall exactly what) and the rears are about 4 kg/mm. I have 24mm adjustable Whiteline bars at both ends, set hard at the front and soft at the rear.

In general, I wouldn't want to have any higher spring rates on the street. The car rides noticeably better on the SK B6s than it did on the previous dampers (B6s at the front, KYBs at the rear - the B6s were fine but the KYBs were worn out) and with softer springs, but it is as harsh as I would want/accept for street work.

I suspect that a better setup for the ARBs would be to use a 22mm rear bar, preferably adjustable and probably set to the hard end. I think my car has a little bit too much roll stiffness at the rear and is reasonably keen to get the back out in high speed corners, which can be a lot of fun.....and sometimes isn't!

For a bit of track work and to possibly correct the balance issues, perhaps ~6kg springs at the front would be a solution.

[JGTC]

I received the below feedback from Josh @ MCA when i asked the same topic question;

My application realistically will be for street/hills/mountain roads instead of the track, where the surface will be bumpy and uneven in sections, quite different to track conditions, i have revised my application back to Josh and see what he recommends.

I'm confident either the X-R Series ($1950) or the Red Series ($2600) would be a great option for your application.

The X-R valving started as a circuit setup but I then detuned it until I found an good level of ride quality for daily driving. The Reds on the other hand are completely custom valved to suit your application, in this case I could up the performance level with the Reds quite a bit without losing much ride quality over the X-Rs. I'd do this through focusing on the front valving and making it more track ready, this will help turn in, sharpness and overall stability.

The Red Series are also dyno tuned and tested, meaning that each damper goes on our dyno and we can get a graph readout from them, from that we can look for any issues or differences left and right and if we find any we can strip the damper back down and make any adjustments needed to get it working to the level of accuracy we want.

Don't get caught up with adjustments, they are not a very important aspect in the grand scheme of things. There are 3 important factors to a shock absorber setup, valving - spring - travel. It's all about making those three things work in harmony. If 2 of those things are perfect but one isn't, it'll be a bad setup no matter what. The damper adjustments are just a bit of a fine tune after that. So what I'm saying is those 3 things are far more important than how many damper adjustments are damper has. In theory, if the valving is perfect, you don't even need damper adjusters.

Edited June 14, 2016 by squareznboxez

[JGTC]

Without starting a new thread, I am also interested in opinions regarding DMS street coilovers as these can be had for r32 gtst for $2400. Has anyone used these and if so, what spring rates did you go with an how hard is it to setup the rebound / compression ? Also looking for opinions on what springs rates people think would work well with hankook rs3 / federal rsrr tyres, 24mm whiteline sway bars and mainly hard street / light track work ?

Cheers in advance

In my research regarding DMS as a choice, the motorsport circles i have asked the same question to unanimously agreed MCA was a far better option not only quality wise, but also service/support wise. as the DMS are made-to-order completely in-house, parts and servicing are not cheap from a private consumer point of view.

the below post is from one of the Evo guys who had used all 3

I've been through Ohlins, MCA reds and DMS 50s, and I'd have to say they all performed reasonably close. Murray went out of his way to assist me rebuilding my Ohlins when no one else wanted and for that reason I now have a set of MCA reds and silvers in both cars. Having support is probably the most critical part on a serviceable item like this

[Ben26]

I received the below feedback from Josh @ MCA when i asked the same topic question;

My application realistically will be for street/hills/mountain roads instead of the track, where the surface will be bumpy and uneven in sections, quite different to track conditions, i have revised my application back to Josh and see what he recommends.

Yea I spoke to Josh as well but was not very impressed with what he recommended / the way he sets up suspension. His view is to use standard ARB with hard springs to control roll and pitch, squat, dive etc. Yes this means you get more Independence side to side however it means they run ridiculous spring rates on the street as a result. He recommended for a r32 gtst that 10kg front and 4 kg rear would be a "comfortable option". His other comment to me when I asked why the spring rates were almost 4 times stiffer than factory on the front was that "we haven't tested a factory r32 gtst and don't test factory cars setup, we just look at a car and decide what we think will work best". How can you make something better without knowing how it handles from factory ?

[Ben26]

I can't comment on the DMS dampers directly, but my input on the latter parts of your questions are that I have what amounts to Kings R32 GTR springs on SydneyKid B6s on a 32 GTSt. The front springs are >5 kg/mm (but I can't recall exactly what) and the rears are about 4 kg/mm. I have 24mm adjustable Whiteline bars at both ends, set hard at the front and soft at the rear.

In general, I wouldn't want to have any higher spring rates on the street. The car rides noticeably better on the SK B6s than it did on the previous dampers (B6s at the front, KYBs at the rear - the B6s were fine but the KYBs were worn out) and with softer springs, but it is as harsh as I would want/accept for street work.

I suspect that a better setup for the ARBs would be to use a 22mm rear bar, preferably adjustable and probably set to the hard end. I think my car has a little bit too much roll stiffness at the rear and is reasonably keen to get the back out in high speed corners, which can be a lot of fun.....and sometimes isn't!

For a bit of track work and to possibly correct the balance issues, perhaps ~6kg springs at the front would be a solution.

Yea I have emailed Gary to ask if he is still selling the items from the Group buy kit years ago so we will see what happens I guess. My gut feeling is that DMS will wan't to run a fairly high rate compared. Yep ok I was thinking along those lines for spring rates as well so hopefully Gary can still provide those shocks. Otherwise where else can I buy them ? Do you use factory top mounts or ISC / something aftermarket for more travel ? Do you run helpers to keep the springs trapped ? Yea I think Gary has said in the past 27mm front and 24mm rear is better for a gtst but Whiteline only sell 24mm all round now as far as I can tell so 22mm isnt a option either unfortunately.

[GTSBoy]

Gary did mine only a couple of years ago. Unless he has stopped doing them recently, he's still doing them.

There's no need to worry about captive spring problems or modded tops for travel etc etc. The only sensible way to set up a GTSt is at the recommended height (about 345mm, give or take, at both ends). The (Kings) springs need to be pre-loaded to fit the dampers at this ride height, so no issues.

[Ben26]

Ok awesome. Only reason I said that is I bought r33 gts4 stuff off him 3-4 years ago and on the gts4, the springs weren't trapped at full droop so must be a little different on the gtst. Sounds like the way to go then !!!

[GTSBoy]

I am using GTR springs on mine. GTSt springs sit my car too low. Have never been able to work out what is different on my car! It's not the dampers. Both the previous B6s and Gary's are correct GTSt units and have the right grooves. The rears similarly.

[Dale FZ1]

Yea I spoke to Josh as well but was not very impressed with what he recommended / the way he sets up suspension. His view is to use standard ARB with hard springs to control roll and pitch, squat, dive etc. Yes this means you get more Independence side to side however it means they run ridiculous spring rates on the street as a result. He recommended for a r32 gtst that 10kg front and 4 kg rear would be a "comfortable option". His other comment to me when I asked why the spring rates were almost 4 times stiffer than factory on the front was that "we haven't tested a factory r32 gtst and don't test factory cars setup, we just look at a car and decide what we think will work best". How can you make something better without knowing how it handles from factory ?

We shouldn't be too surprised that not all models are going to get tested, or 25 y.o. shocks pulled apart or dynoed, or their spring rates checked before a decision is made what will work reasonably well for an application. Any of the 2wd R chassis are very similar in suspension layout, dimensions, and weight distribution. There may be a difference in overall mass for a 32 to 33 to 34, but they are going to respond pretty similarly. So if MCA have their shock absorber platform well sorted, there's only going to be a minor spec tweak to get things working to customer requirements.

It's no different for other models eg Evo 4,5,6,7. All very similar, but different. We did a 6, ran with the suggested spring rates that we figured might be a bit stiff for road use, and found that it was both significantly better riding and handling on road, and on track.

The point being, don't get caught up in thinking we know all about spring rates. They're just a number, mostly useless to anyone other than a parts/inventory person or an engineer. If a setup works, then it is fit for purpose. MCA have a lot of experience to draw on, and have provided excellent customer service to me and others.

The good thing with all this, is you are free to go with other suspension engineers/suppliers if you wish.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

Food for thought, I run 10/7 MCA X-R and it's more comfy than other setups with 8/6

Spring rate is one thing, dampers are another.. the latter being the most important.

[ichi-go]

Food for thought, I run 10/7 MCA X-R and it's more comfy than other setups with 8/6

Spring rate is one thing, dampers are another.. the latter being the most important.

+1

I think the common consensus is that if the spring rate is high, it will be bumpy - yes if the damper isn't valved to that kind of spring rate (the exact reason why putting in lowered spring to factory shocks will make a bumpy ride)

And in terms of comfort, everyone's rating is subjective, one man's bumpy might be another man's firm

[JGTC]

Thanks guys, based on the feedback, I'm currently exchanging emails with Josh @ MCA, to try and narrow down an ideal valving/spring values to suit Tarmac/Targa conditions, rather than Circuit, I think the extra suppleness to deal with uneven/changing conditons will suit my driving which is primarily nat. park/old highways, with the chance of doing hill climbs etc.

Keen to hear from anyone had their gear set up for these sort of conditions.

[niZmO_Man]

A friend of mine put MCA blues on this EVO7 (from factory non-MR suspension). Can't remember the spring rates but they were quite "high" for the street.

Comfort wise it was on par with the stocker suspension (I didn't spend much time driving his car before the change), body control was better. Damn thing was pretty comfortable (with 18" Hankook RS-3 tyres), especially with ripple control.

Said friend thought it was too soft and should've went with the stiffer setup.

[Roy]

Frankly I would be going DMS or MCA, lastly Bilsteins. But all three would be decent enough things though I tend to believe the DMS or MCA will give you a slightly more focussed result.

The critical thing IMO is to decide what tyre are you going to run. The TYRE is CRITICAL. I agree with much of what GTSBoy has stated but since you have mentioned 30% track car its important to remember that your car with such low spring rates and modern semi slicks will quickly find itself out of its depth. At the end of the day you will need more spring and associated damping to handle the grip an A050 will give you.

But if you are going to street tyre, even a grippy street tyre like AD08R you wont generate the grip to need higher spring rates.

This is full Whiteline kit. Back in the day my car was actually the Whiteline development car, so low spring rates like GTSBoy refers to on near new RE55s

This is the same turbo setup just with more boost so 40rwkws more and Tein RAs revalved by Racepace with F7/R5 springs running old A050 tyres

The difference in stability is huge as with the lower spring rates and grippy tyres there was simply too much pitch under brakes, squat under power and roll in corners that loaded up the suspension. You can see I spend most of the lap chasing the car with steering input

The kicker is I think the Teins with higher spring rate actually are less crashy on the street. In general driving you can tell they are stiff just with how the car rides the bumps but they are actually less crashy over expansion joints and the like because I suspect the Bilsteins valving is more agressive than the Teins.....so dont discount the actual valving of the shock and in turn the ride...its not all spring

[JGTC]

Awesome response Roy! Thanks for taking the time to write it all up. I think with the Racepace Teins, the value is definitely in the valving, allowing the shock to travel more consistently with the car would definitely inspire confidence.

In my emails to MCA, i've asked for his opinion on valving and spring rates based on on a tarmac/targa driving with balance for street driving. I feel that catering to the uneven/bumpy roads that targa/tarmac presents would lead to more compliant damping/valving with tolerable spring rates for the street.

Tyre wise i see myself always sticking with street rubber (currently on AD08s, and future will be Hankook RS3s)

[Hadouken]

I've just gone from bc br's to MCA purples.

Street feeling - MCA is many more comfortables even with heavier Spring rates all round. Front end feels less bouncy too.

Track time soon but I see these outperforming the BC's easily.