Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[R_34]

I don't know but the 9174 is now useless, at least for RB guys, as the new one will be better everywhere with lower inertia.

The inducer are really close between 9174 and this new 8474 so I think that they'll spool almost the same,the newer will be slightly better. Wait and see for the release date and the first results if they didn't send some units for "testing" purpose.

The 9180 won't move I think as it is more suited to large engines, the 9174 will be obsolete and the 8374 should stay as it will be a quicker spooling turbo that it's bigger brother. Well those are just guesses time will tell.

[HarrisRacing]

I spotted this morning on FB that a compressor update is coming on the 8374 which will become a 8474 :
 

 
It shows some nice gain in flow beyond 2.2 PR with high efficiency even at high flow rates. The surge line hasn't moved too much to the right, wait and see for the spool characteristic of this new combo as a +5mm on the inducer is huge.
IMHO i may replace the 9174 as it has almost the same practical flow, better efficiency but with a smaller compressor wheel.

I'll test it! Send me one geoff!

[SimonR32]

Looks very nice but it does say "concept" which normally points to reality not living up to expectations.

I'm sure Geoff will confirm and send me a sample to test

[Nismo 3.2ish]

Would they release that type of info if it had not been tried and tested?

I doubt they would mention it and definitely not show  the graph if they were having problems.

I would think it would stop or at least slow down the sales of the 8374 by releasing this type information, but ????

[Lithium]

I think it's not necessarily that it's not working right so much as being a lot more careful to ensure that whatever they release is on point and works best - not putting all eggs in one basket and also not throwing out a product before everything is "in place" like last time, I think they're trying to learn from last time and do a better job. The fact that they already have compressor maps should suggest they aren't pissing around.

I have my concerns about the huge trim wheel BUT I have also experienced EFR7163s (which I was similarly concerned about, they have a similar sized inducer to EFR7670s and GTX3076Rs) first hand and they spool better than a GT2871R....  so Borg Warner aren't newbs, and I wouldn't rely on conventional wisdom when you have something that is pretty outside of convention - we can but just wait for real results.

Something worth noting with that compressor map and indicates where this should be relevant to the interests of Skyline guys/everyone who have been worried about the risk of overspinning these turbos.  If you look at the 2.8 pressure ratio line at the 75lb/min area which is more or less the common and sensible area to stop pushing harder with an EFR8374 on an RB, the old EFR8374 is >111,000rpm so both compressor flow and max safe rpm are starting to get close.    The prototype compressor map shows it as under 104,000rpm, you could push the same setup up to 80lb/min and still not be working the turbine as hard.

It is good to see Borg Warner still developing these and can't wait to see a new product emerge.

[Nismo 3.2ish]

If you were to have a guess Dan, when would something like this be finalized and in production or the bin.

My problem is time and waiting 6 months, a year or so is not going to happen and I would still have to go with the 8374 and install the speed sensor, but will wait until I see what is happening with the 8474

[Piggaz]

Who knows.

Purchase the turbo a week before it goes in. Whatever is available, buy it. 

[Lithium]

@Full-Race Geoff would probably be the best one to hit about about that I have no idea

[Nismo 3.2ish]

3 minutes ago, Lithium said:

@Full-Race Geoff would probably be the best one to hit about about that I have no idea

Thanks , wait and see

[Sub Boy32]

15 hours ago, Piggaz said:

Who knows.

Purchase the turbo a week before it goes in. Whatever is available, buy it. 

I ordered my 8374 and it took 9.5mths to arrive......order one now! Haha!

[Nismo 3.2ish]

50 minutes ago, Sub Boy32 said:

I ordered my 8374 and it took 9.5mths to arrive......order one now! Haha!

Hi Chris, that's what I have been thinking, but now with the 8474 in the wind , I think sales will slow down for what could be  "The Old Model " 8374 ????

[munt-WA]

Hey all, been reading this forum for like 8 years but never bothered creating an account. Have enjoyed reading these EFR threads :).

Currently building an R32 GTR myself and have decided to go with the 9174. I'm not sure where everyone is buying there EFR's from but I have been quoted for an alloy bearing housing 9174 Supercore at $1897+GST from MTQ, they also quoted the 1.05 ext gate housing at $891+GST but it looks like JEGS sell the 1.05 housing at 575aud not inc shipping.

so approx $2700 all up. A lot cheaper than I can find everywhere else.

[GREENMAHINEUK]

i was also about to buy a 9174 but am wondering how quickly the 8474 will be available (if at all ) Plus no one seems to be able to give any meaningful results for the 9174

The car is having other work done so it doest matter if I had to wait a month or so - longer than that and i need to buy a turbo. Have looked at precisions but prefer an EFR as long as i can get the right one.

I was told the 8374 would be maxed out , didnt want a 9180 as I dont need to go into orbit so a 9174 seems to fit nicely inbetween .. I was looking at the ext gate 1.05 but only because thats what ive been advised so far

Engine is an OS giken 3 litre , with a flowed head and 1 mm o/size valves step 2 hks cams with uparated springs etc manifold is a 6 boost. It has a crank trigger set up running with a link G4

Is a 9174 the right way to go  - thats an honest question and would really appreciate feedback because im really not sure what you can get from an 8374

Looking for round 800 bhp (uk at the crank ) . The info on the EFRs s pretty limited in the Uk or put another way nowhere near as good as in Oz

[Nismo 3.2ish]

18 hours ago, GREENMAHINEUK said:

i was also about to buy a 9174 but am wondering how quickly the 8474 will be available (if at all ) Plus no one seems to be able to give any meaningful results for the 9174

The car is having other work done so it doest matter if I had to wait a month or so - longer than that and i need to buy a turbo. Have looked at precisions but prefer an EFR as long as i can get the right one.

I was told the 8374 would be maxed out , didnt want a 9180 as I dont need to go into orbit so a 9174 seems to fit nicely inbetween .. I was looking at the ext gate 1.05 but only because thats what ive been advised so far

Engine is an OS giken 3 litre , with a flowed head and 1 mm o/size valves step 2 hks cams with uparated springs etc manifold is a 6 boost. It has a crank trigger set up running with a link G4

Is a 9174 the right way to go  - thats an honest question and would really appreciate feedback because im really not sure what you can get from an 8374

Looking for round 800 bhp (uk at the crank ) . The info on the EFRs s pretty limited in the Uk or put another way nowhere near as good as in Oz

From what I have found out about the 8374, it is about the same 800BHP as my PT6266 Gen 2 , but spools quicker and better transient response and the 6266 is pretty good but probably works better top end. As far as I know they rate most turbos at BHP (crank)

With a 3Lt the 8374 would be great, been in one and it flies. I have a 3.2Lt and if I was going for good response and mad top end I would go 9180 as they also seem to get going similar or better than the 6266.

I am sure there are some blokes here that can steer you in the right direction.

[discopotato03]

Mr Lithium , I'd like to hear of your experience with the 7163 . Some users in the US think they are a bit laggy for their size and output . I don't know if anyones had one as a singleon an RB but its an interesting thought on an RB25 .

 

A .

[Sub Boy32]

19 hours ago, GREENMAHINEUK said:

i was also about to buy a 9174 but am wondering how quickly the 8474 will be available (if at all ) Plus no one seems to be able to give any meaningful results for the 9174

The car is having other work done so it doest matter if I had to wait a month or so - longer than that and i need to buy a turbo. Have looked at precisions but prefer an EFR as long as i can get the right one.

I was told the 8374 would be maxed out , didnt want a 9180 as I dont need to go into orbit so a 9174 seems to fit nicely inbetween .. I was looking at the ext gate 1.05 but only because thats what ive been advised so far

Engine is an OS giken 3 litre , with a flowed head and 1 mm o/size valves step 2 hks cams with uparated springs etc manifold is a 6 boost. It has a crank trigger set up running with a link G4

Is a 9174 the right way to go  - thats an honest question and would really appreciate feedback because im really not sure what you can get from an 8374

Looking for round 800 bhp (uk at the crank ) . The info on the EFRs s pretty limited in the Uk or put another way nowhere near as good as in Oz

I will be able to let you know in about a month.

I have an RB30 with a 8374 (I got one of the first batch of them about five years ago). It was a 0.92 a/r IWG exhaust housing and it made 650hp at all four wheels on pump gas. It did suffer from high back pressure due to the exhaust housing being too small and had issues above 22psi. I have now got a 1.05 EWG exhaust housing and twin 40mm wastegates going on the car which no doubt will make a bit more power (not that I'm chasing anymore power) but it should have a bit better control and a slightly better torque curve as we were having to roll off the boost in the top end.

[Lithium]

12 hours ago, discopotato03 said:

Mr Lithium , I'd like to hear of your experience with the 7163 . Some users in the US think they are a bit laggy for their size and output . I don't know if anyones had one as a singleon an RB but its an interesting thought on an RB25 .

Hi Adrian, long time no speak.  

So for transparency on this one, I'd been dubious of the EFR7163 - tbh some of the dyno plots I've seen for them have not been that convincing and I'm still not quite sure what that is about (I have since seen very convincing dyno plots too - so maybe they were setup issues!?), also the very large trim compressor wheel thing made me feel it was more to do with managing space and maybe turbine speed than actual real world performance improvements.   I did wonder if they were going to end up being somewhere between a 7064 and a 7670 and tbh I've not experienced either of those two turbos first hand so maybe it could be possible that I'm underestimating what they'd be like as well - but for now going off what Geoff Raicer has said about the 7163 it feels like the wise choice is that he was onto something when he raved about them when they first broke cover.  I'm not going to eat my hat about being cautious about them though, better that than tell everyone the new best thing is here with absolutely no evidence and turn out to possibly have given out terrible advice  

The best data I have on the EFR7163 was from sitting in the passenger seat of a Celica GT4 running a stock 3SGTE with an .80 twin scroll EFR7163 with some fabrication done to pair it up to the stock GT4 twin scroll manifold.  Attached is some plotting of boost vs rpm for a pull in 1st gear, 2nd gear and 3rd gear.   In 1st it was hitting ~20psi in the high 4000rpm range, 2nd it was between mid/maybe low 4000rpm depending on when the pull started and 3rd it was comfortably hitting 20psi by mid 3000rpm.   With enough time and loading in 3rd we were actually regularly seeing 1bar barely over 3000rpm lurking around in a 50kph zone, as can be seen here.

I think compared to what we had in the 90s and early 2000s the EFR7163 could pass for a stock turbo on a 2litre engine, it may have been ever so slightly more doughy than a typical T28BB (my natural comparison when thinking of a "decent" stock turbo from a 2litre turbo car of our era) under 3000rpm but once you start getting into the boost threshold range of the EFR7163 (3500+) on the 2litre the EFR actually started felt as good if not better.    

I think one of these would be crazy on an RB25.  Without having experienced one first hand I'd have been dubious, when you consider it's 57mm inducer compressor rated at near 60lb/min of flow.  I daren't predict how one would drive on an RB25 but from my impressions with the GT4 I would not hesitate to say it'd be MUCH better than anything I've ever been in when aiming for the type of performance "we" like.   That is nice road manners and something that won't be a stupid mismatch at any kind of boost which the stock motor is happy with on 98 octane.  The most recent big turbo RB25s I've been in have run GT3076R and ATR43SS2 (both journal and DBB) and they are not in the same league of spool.  You wouldn't need to get the logs out and trawl them to work out what the comparison is, I'd put it out there that you could potentially do a casual drive around a city block without even going WOT and you'd have a pretty good idea, if that makes sense?

 

 

[Griffin]

How would a efr 7670 perform on Rb26 n1 engine with 264 cams? 

Looking at near 400 rwkw on e85. close to it now with a plain bearing borgwarner. I'm after more go under 3500 rpm. 100% Street driven.

[White GTS-T]

[Piggaz]

1 hour ago, Griffin said:

How would a efr 7670 perform on Rb26 n1 engine with 264 cams? 

Looking at near 400 rwkw on e85. close to it now with a plain bearing borgwarner. I'm after more go under 3500 rpm. 100% Street driven.

For what it's worth, I was in that car with Dan that day "scoping out" the 7163.

7163 is a 60 lb snail and to draw a comparison, the GTX 3071 is a 56 lb huffer. It's hard to believe that the 7163 came on so strong on 2.0, no spiny cam engine like it did. It almost felt like it was too small, but that's only because  it was on so early.

Bump it up another 560 ish cc, a 7670 would be an absolute bullet on a RB26. Definitely a combo I would like to see put together! What rear housing/gate/manifold combo would you be looking at running?