Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[Lithium]

Not sure.  The power curve is there so it should give an indication of the torque it is making.  Boost was already falling before the rpm reached where RB25s make peak torque so it'll be lower than what would do the setup justice (like peak power) - I'll endevour to get a full dyno plot when we are able to do the full tune to the level we aimed for in the first place

[Kinkstaah]

I also had my tune on Friday, but because automatic with high stall the graphs as usual aren't really comparable. It made 324kw at 18psi at under 20 degrees of ignition timing running E85.

The stock converter slips at about 7%, and I was told the new TC that I got at the time slips about "7% more than stock" as in you'll drop 7% of MPH after the upgrade, so your guess is as good as mine what it'd make with a manual in it. At some point I will post up the differences there too

I have all the graphs, but the runs were done on 9s on the EFR and the GTX ones were 12s pulls which makes quite a big difference on how they display in terms of response when you have a torque converter at play, so they'd be misleading here.

 

[Lithium]

Yeah sounds a lot like the power delivery in those dyno runs are not really going to be a great comparison.  

Here is a clip show the actuator opening with rpm, this is with ~80-85% duty on the EFR boost control solenoid.

 

video-1497809438.mp4

[blah_blah]

3 hours ago, Lithium said:

In case folks hadn't been following, the above is a T3 0.83 internally gated EFR7064 on an RB25 - btw.

A helpful mate has offered use of his high pressure BW actuator to test out on this car to make sure that fixes it before buying things, thanks @Sub Boy32!    Hoping that it allows us to hold around 18-19psi, or whatever it seems appropriate to run

Following your results with interest. As im trying to decide between an EFR and GTX Gen 2. What is the Garrett equivalent of your 7064? How about the transient reposnose compared to the Garrett that i keep hearing about with EFR turbos?

 

I went for a drive in Gregs car on Friday night was so quick i got motion sickness lol. But that would also be attributable to his car being very well sorted traction wise, felt like a 4wd car on launch

[Lithium]

6 minutes ago, blah_blah said:

Following your results with interest. As im trying to decide between an EFR and GTX Gen 2. What is the Garrett equivalent of your 7064? How about the transient reposnose compared to the Garrett that i keep hearing about with EFR turbos?

I went for a drive in Gregs car on Friday night was so quick i got motion sickness lol. But that would also be attributable to his car being very well sorted traction wise, felt like a 4wd car on launch

Who is Greg/what is his setup?

This car isn't mine, just one that I tune.   The closest equivalent to this turbo would be a Gen1 GTX3071R, I've not experienced a GTX3071R but I can say this smashes the crap out of my old GT3076R in terms of response.  Like it's not even comparable.   I would actually be interested to get this side by side with a stock turbo R33 to see exactly how different they are.

[Kinkstaah]

13 minutes ago, Lithium said:

Yeah sounds a lot like the power delivery in those dyno runs are not really going to be a great comparison.  

Here is a clip show the actuator opening with rpm, this is with ~80-85% duty on the EFR boost control solenoid.

 

video-1497809438.mp4

I had heard rumours that the "stock" canister wasn't much good, and the borg warner "heavy duty" one was better and pretty much shipped with all turbos now. As The 7064 is "older" I guess it's got the older canister with it too, there you go, can see why they upgraded it

The thing about torque converters is they can generate boost at 0 road speed, and if your RPM is derived from 0 road speed it'd be a bit misleading to show 15psi at apparently 500rpm :p. Combined with more losses in the drivetrain elsewhere you have to really only compare it to itself. I did see this on the dyno but I don't have a graph of it - Comparing a 270kw GTX3582 to a 320kw EFR 7670 with all else being the same the EFR was massively ahead everywhere, but I also have graphs to show the 3582 absolutely massacring the 7670.

Point being, compare the dyno numbers to your own car if you can at any time. Ultimately the turbos don't "lie", you will get your result based on the rest of your setup. Noone is going to be unhappy with a GTX3071R gen2 or a 7163/7670 on a RB25, the question is how easy is it to fit. In Tony's case a GTX3071 will bolt directly to where his Hypergear is. Will the EFR IWG? (no idea) Either of them will make you a happy man.

[blah_blah]

5 minutes ago, Lithium said:

Who is Greg/what is his setup?

This car isn't mine, just one that I tune.   The closest equivalent to this turbo would be a Gen1 GTX3071R, I've not experienced a GTX3071R but I can say this smashes the crap out of my old GT3076R in terms of response.  Like it's not even comparable.   I would actually be interested to get this side by side with a stock turbo R33 to see exactly how different they are.

Oh Greg is Kinkstaah lol

Interesting, i find myself struggling that im choosing between an EFR which is a 7year old turbo? to a newly released garret gen 2 gtx turbo

 

[Griffin]

I have another update on SPARES BOX re the supply of an efr.

I was told 6 weeks ago it would of be sent on the 15th of June. 

I called them on the 14/6 to find out how true that was.

Was told it would be sent on 15/6. (Express post which I paid extra for)

Called them today to see where it is. (19/6).  Was told it 'might' be in stock by September this year. 

Will now get a refund less PayPal fees etc?

Looks like the efr dream is over. Please guys beware before paying for anything with them.

 

[34GeeTeeTee]

1 minute ago, Griffin said:

I have another update on SPARES BOX re the supply of an efr.

I was told 6 weeks ago it would of be sent on the 15th of June. 

I called them on the 14/6 to find out how true that was.

Was told it would be sent on 15/6. (Express post which I paid extra for)

Called them today to see where it is. (19/6).  Was told it 'might' be in stock by September this year. 

Will now get a refund less PayPal fees etc?

Looks like the efr dream is over. Please guys beware before paying for anything with them.

 

What turbo was it? I nearly took up the sparesbox offer on mine but ended up getting the same pricing through my fabricator... I can check with him if you like?

[iruvyouskyrine]

I have another update on SPARES BOX re the supply of an efr.
I was told 6 weeks ago it would of be sent on the 15th of June. 
I called them on the 14/6 to find out how true that was.
Was told it would be sent on 15/6. (Express post which I paid extra for)
Called them today to see where it is. (19/6).  Was told it 'might' be in stock by September this year. 
Will now get a refund less PayPal fees etc?
Looks like the efr dream is over. Please guys beware before paying for anything with them.
 

What EFR did you purchase? I have been told the 28th of June is when my 6758 should be here. I know another person who also purchased a 6758 got told the same date as me, as your date is different I guess you were after a different model?

Will give them a call today and chase it up.

[iruvyouskyrine]

What turbo was it? I nearly took up the sparesbox offer on mine but ended up getting the same pricing through my fabricator... I can check with him if you like?

Interesting, Dion couldn't even come close on mine ($700 more than sparesbox). I guess that answers my other question of what you are moving to from the HTA

[34GeeTeeTee]

12 minutes ago, iruvyouskyrine said:

 

Interesting, Dion couldn't even come close on mine ($700 more than sparesbox). I guess that answers my other question of what you are moving to from the HTA

Probably just because mine was already in stock? Who knows...

But yes, you have the answer lol!

Updates will follow over the next week or two...

[iruvyouskyrine]

Possibly, I know he did have one for ages after someone committed to buying then pulled out. Keen to see your results, is it going back to Jez?

[34GeeTeeTee]

5 minutes ago, iruvyouskyrine said:

Possibly, I know he did have one for ages after someone committed to buying then pulled out. Keen to see your results, is it going back to Jez?

Yeah mate, back to Jez in the next few weeks once its all back together! Plan to be back on the track for Round 4 in 4 weeks

Be interesting to see how it performs!

[Lithium]

4 hours ago, blah_blah said:

What is the Garrett equivalent of your 7064? How about the transient response compared to the Garrett that i keep hearing about with EFR turbos?

 

I mentioned above that the GTX3071R would be the closest equivalent, I'll have to add here - there is no full on Garrett equivalent of ANY EFR turbo.  All the Garrett turbos have inconel exhaust wheels, all the EFRs have Titanium Alloy ones... it's not quite the same but also kind of like saying "What is the equivalent Garrett plain bearing T-series turbo to a GTX3076R?"

There are none, they are journal bearing for a start - the best you can do is find one which makes similar power, but you can't expect it to respond the same with with a journal bearing core.  Same goes for the low inertia turbines vs conventional ones

[blah_blah]

17 minutes ago, Lithium said:

I mentioned above that the GTX3071R would be the closest equivalent, I'll have to add here - there is no full on Garrett equivalent of ANY EFR turbo.  All the Garrett turbos have inconel exhaust wheels, all the EFRs have Titanium Alloy ones... it's not quite the same but also kind of like saying "What is the equivalent Garrett plain bearing T-series turbo to a GTX3076R?"

There are none, they are journal bearing for a start - the best you can do is find one which makes similar power, but you can't expect it to respond the same with with a journal bearing core.  Same goes for the low inertia turbines vs conventional ones

Yes referring to power wise.

So in summary what your saying is that the EFR exhaust wheels are much lighter than say the GTX Gen 2 and EFR turbos of 7years old are still well above that of the techonolgy of the GTX Gen 2?

[discopotato03]

AFAIK all three versions of the GT/X3071R use the same GT30 turbine , which dates back to around 1991. 

[Lithium]

13 minutes ago, blah_blah said:

So in summary what your saying is that the EFR exhaust wheels are much lighter than say the GTX Gen 2 and EFR turbos of 7years old are still well above that of the techonolgy of the GTX Gen 2?

In a nutshell, yes - maybe not quite technology, so much as "more focussed".  

One thing worth keeping in mind, the most significant change between say a Gen2 GTX3076R and the GT3076R which was commonplace 15 years ago is the compressor wheel.  It's the same turbine wheel (both material and design), same exhaust housing, and the same ball bearing core - the GTX introduced steel bearing cages (which were only an extra cost option on GT-series) which is purely a reliability thing as sometimes people have issues with the plastic cages on the earlier GTs... this does nothing for performance. 

At face value the newer Gen2 GTX compressor wheels may prove to be better design than the EFRs, they certainly flow impressively well for the power they make but I am hesitant to launch to any conclusions about how good they are or aren't compared to the EFR range.  I'd guess that if you got right down to it, the EFR equivalent will be more responsive but it could be debatable how measurable or relevant that is - if I had the means to try one and the other on an equivalent setup then I'd love to as it'd be an interesting thing.  Given a huge amount of the response comes down to the turbine wheel etc, I really struggle to see how a Gen2 GTX3071R will compete with an EFR7064 in terms of drivability HOWEVER I also have full confidence the Gen2 Garrett will make more power - too.    The next size down Garrett is the GTX3067R which flows quite a bit less than the EFR7064, so there is no direct parallel but I have to say - if this EFR7064 hits in the region of 300kw @ hubs like we are hoping then it is seriously SUCH a good street setup it's not funny.  I never would have believed an RB25 capable of that power would drive like that

Edited June 19, 2017 by Lithium

[VFRegal]

8 hours ago, Lithium said:

In case folks hadn't been following, the above is a T3 0.83 internally gated EFR7064 on an RB25 - btw.

A helpful mate has offered use of his high pressure BW actuator to test out on this car to make sure that fixes it before buying things, thanks @Sub Boy32!    Hoping that it allows us to hold around 18-19psi, or whatever it seems appropriate to run

Very similar results to my sr20 with 7163. You definitely want to get the 4 port mac and dual port turbosmart actuator.

[blah_blah]

6 minutes ago, Lithium said:

In a nutshell, yes - maybe not quite technology, so much as "more focussed".  

One thing worth keeping in mind, the most significant change between say a Gen2 GTX3076R and the GT3076R which was commonplace 15 years ago is the compressor wheel.  It's the same turbine wheel (both material and design), same exhaust housing, and the same ball bearing core - the GTX introduced steel bearing cages (which were only an extra cost option on GT-series) which is purely a reliability thing as sometimes people have issues with the plastic cages on the earlier GTs... this does nothing for performance. 

At face value the newer Gen2 GTX compressor wheels may prove to be better design than the EFRs, they certainly flow impressively well for the power they make but I am hesitant to launch to any conclusions about how good they are or aren't compared to the EFR range.  I'd guess that if you got right down to it, the EFR equivalent will be more responsive but it could be debatable how measurable or relevant that is - if I had the means to try one and the other on an equivalent setup then I'd love to as it'd be an interesting thing.  Given a huge amount of the response comes down to the turbine wheel etc, I really struggle to see how a Gen2 GTX3071R will compete with an EFR7064 in terms of drivability HOWEVER I also have full confidence the Gen2 Garrett will make more power - too.    The next size down Garrett is the GTX3067R which flows quite a bit less than the EFR7064, so there is no direct parallel but I have to say - if this EFR7064 hits in the region of 300kw @ hubs like we are hoping then it is seriously SUCH a good street setup it's not funny.  I never would have believed an RB25 capable of that power would drive like that

Thanks eagerly waiting your results once you've sorted out your setup