Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[mtnickel]

16 hours ago, 2pee said:

Stu Kelly was the guy - wrote the name down for someone the other week who was sick of flange turbo issues on a circuit car, but he didn't want to go 2nd hand.  Of course, can't find the link where I saw it now!

These were the Roush ones, you might see if there's more coming into stock with the end of the season   -

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/272367099100?rmvSB=true

 

Those ones stated "rebuild required". Were those The same Ones out got? Maybe they just said that for liability reasons. 

[2pee]

1 hour ago, mtnickel said:

Those ones stated "rebuild required". Were those The same Ones out got? Maybe they just said that for liability reasons. 

It was the disclaimer on all sets sold, when I'm sure it was to prevent any moaning and whining in the event someone's set didn't get any life. One set here has taken punishment for most of this year, although when I spoke to them to get an idea of condition, rather than rely on an ebay ad, the mantra was repeated.

They also had the 6758s in .85 A/R - I'd expect fewer of those in future though.

[mtnickel]

4 hours ago, 2pee said:

It was the disclaimer on all sets sold, when I'm sure it was to prevent any moaning and whining in the event someone's set didn't get any life. One set here has taken punishment for most of this year, although when I spoke to them to get an idea of condition, rather than rely on an ebay ad, the mantra was repeated.

They also had the 6758s in .85 A/R - I'd expect fewer of those in future though.

Cool.

I'll keep this turbo availability off topic chat to a minimum on this thread and get to the point.

Some more digging led me to find this:

So I think this is a little more indicative of what a 7163 .80 a/r v-band will do on a 2.5L with a more typical short/log style manifold. The compared turbo is a GTX3576r on .63 TiAL housing. Compression is 10:1, but closer comparison than was mentioned about the long manifold poor flowing Subaru EJ.

10psi by 3000rpm should be a decent threshold. What will be interesting though is how it responds in low gears...hopefully with the mixed flow turbine and light wheel and ball bearing it feels at least if not more lively than I have now.

Edited October 27, 2017 by mtnickel

[Dale FZ1]

5 hours ago, mtnickel said:

I think this is a little more indicative of what a 7163 .80 a/r v-band will do on a 2.5L with a more typical short/log style manifold. The compared turbo is a GTX3576r on .63 TiAL housing. Compression is 10:1, but closer comparison than was mentioned about the long manifold poor flowing Subaru EJ.

10psi by 3000rpm should be a decent threshold. What will be interesting though is how it responds in low gears...hopefully with the mixed flow turbine and light wheel and ball bearing it feels at least if not more lively than I have now.

The comment that seems most common with EFR is that dyno figures do not convey  the linearity of response.  Provided you're sensible about how to engineer the fitment of turbine to manifold, and assuming the I/C + exhaust piping is adequate, you will achieve big improvements across the board.

But be aware that all setups involve accepting compromises somewhere.  It's not like you have found the silver bullet for performance - at story's end it's just a much better/newer spec turbo. Hard not to get a bit excited though and end up over-thinking what to expect - and many of us have been through that process.

Not sure what engine that dyno sheet is off, or if there's any point trying to compare the result with a GT3576?  In the absence of a result from an RB series engine, I'd look for what the BMW crowd have done with M54B25 engines.  Although from what I've seen they go for the bigger 3 litre engine, and/or focus on the S54 M-spec engine and chase big hp with big turbo setups.  At least they're using short stroke I6 engines so it's a closer/more relevant mechanical spec.

I'm pretty keen to see a few pics of the installation as it progresses, and hear the results.

FWIW - if you're looking at adaptors, or welding on different flange to the turbine housing, I would look at sourcing a decent quality fabricated manifold with small diameter runners and the correct flange or V band for straight fit and best outcome.

[Dale FZ1]

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1378565

Here's something that might help with what's going on in BMW land using EFR7163

[34GeeTeeTee]

On 19/10/2017 at 10:52 AM, Dale FZ1 said:

 

My first response is that NO setup is going to be the "silver bullet" for performance.  It's only about achieving an acceptable compromise.  It's always been amazing to review logs for how an engine behaves on-road (or track) and see how different that is compared to a dyno.  What you've got isn't necessarily bad, but with the spiking there's room to make it less wrong.

Secondly, the big thing (for me) is how does it feel? And can the chassis setup (which includes tyres) actually use it without just turning rubber to smoke?  Edits ^^ from your post sort of indicate that you're actually in "about" the right performance area for a 2wd R chassis. Without the cheater traction advantage of a GTR, it's pointless IMO to try to emulate/expect the same sort of engine performance as a GTR because it probably won't work to best effect.

 

https://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/358438-34geeteetee-daily-track-project/?page=111

 

Have a look at what Mat has achieved with the 8374 on a 25 Neo.  And look closely at the WG takeoff angles.  Now he has no issues with boost control, but the target in that instance is going to be North of 20psi so direct comparisons aren't possible if you are for some reason targeting 15psi (arbitrary figure chosen).

Perhaps Mat could offer experiences/opinions regarding the 8374 on an RB25, and his take on what applications that would best suit and/or what compromises would have to be accepted.  Bear in mind it's experiences from a guy who's actually achieving some pretty solid results without major dramas.

** Somewhere in amongst this, I'm seeing that we are fixating on boost pressure as the measure of turbocharger control.  There is enough tech available in Greg's setup that perhaps turbo speed is where the thoughts are best focused**

Bit late to the party on this one Dale  I forgot my SAU password so have been offline for ages

The 8374 on stock RB25 NEO was not something i was convinced would work, especially with the big 1.05 rear on it, but now i have had the thing on track i am glad a few of the guys from Fabtech, Benchmark, Full Race and other places steered me in the direction as the car is a weapon even on gate pressure.

Due to the tired engine we haven't run it  at higher boost levels but on semi slicks on a roller dyno its seeing anywhere from 340kw-360kw but i can tell you its WAY faster than my old HTA setup that supposedly had 390kw on high boost!

If i was to drive this thing daily again i still think the 8374 would be an OK choice but i would be more inclined to go the 7670 just for that added response. The smaller IWG rear housing may help with that, but my car wont be seeing the road again so i am very happy with what i have!

I get asked a lot what the response is like with the 8374 and its a tough one to answer as my results are not relevant to street use, i find it a tad laggy leaving pit lane, but once its on full boost (4500rpm ish) its on boost consistently and feels super responsive between shifts and recovers boost extremely quick! Not often its off boost when on track so lag is really an issue!

Unfortunately my RB is getting a bit tired and i have been suffering oil control issues for the last few rounds of the season but ill get a fresh low km NEO bottom end in it before next round and see if i can get that sorted! For an engine with low comp figures it still makes a lot of power and hauls ass on track!

There are images of the setup back in this thread for those that haven't seen it, its a combo of EFR8374, Fabtech/Hypex twin scroll manifold, twin 40mm turbosmart gates plumbed back into a 4inch dump and full 3.5inch straight through exhaust with single Magnaflow muffler, the thing is whisper quiet on track. It has all braided boost lines now to prevent any boost issues, Turbosmart BOV and the whole setup is heat coated. Probably other stuff i have forgotten to list but its a good setup!

That is my feedback anyway

[burn4005]

So now sema has kicked off, has anyone heard anything about the 8474 and 9280 black series turbos?

[Lithium]

22 hours ago, burn4005 said:

So now sema has kicked off, has anyone heard anything about the 8474 and 9280 black series turbos?

Looks like Garrett have stolen the show this year, here's hoping the G-series deliver on the potential they look like they have.  It'd be nice if there was something as good or better performing than the EFR range but without quite the price, packaging and reliability hurdles

[Dale FZ1]

1 minute ago, Lithium said:

It'd be nice if there was something as good or better performing than the EFR range but without quite the price, packaging and reliability hurdles

So is there a reliability elephant in the room?

Are EFRs failing in service and nobody's talking about it?

[Lithium]

29 minutes ago, Dale FZ1 said:

So is there a reliability elephant in the room?

Are EFRs failing in service and nobody's talking about it?

Sorry - no, poor wording.  I actually know no one directly who has had a failure, I know guys who have been pushing 40psi through a 9180 without issue.  There is just the stigma of overspeeding and the intolerance of the Ti-AL turbines to it, it apparently can happen but given the sheer amount of people running around with them now it doesn't seem THAT bad but it is still a thing which people are aware of.

The most recent failure I know of which is third hand was a WRX which I if I remember rightly (bare in mind, this was "a guy who knows a guy") think was used for sprints which ran an EFR6758 and was running it on full on kill for a fair length of time, maybe 400whp or just over I think and eventually lost the turbine.  That would have been pushed way harder than what most people would expect them to deliver - but it still lost the turbine, where as most people these days just expect to run out of flow.  If they had a turbine speed sensor or generally kept it within the expected flow they likely wouldn't have had any issues, and even then it didn't fail immediately by any stretch.  * Disclaimer, could be inaccuracies in this story but this is the way I heard it.

I actually know someone who had something go through the engine on their EVO running an EFR8374 it went through the turbine wheel as well, something which me and other have discussed and speculated on what would happen if this occured - turned out the damage was no different at all to what I'd expect to see on an inconel wheel.  There is a tiny and what you could almost consider to be "cosmetic" chip on one or two of the blades, far from the "explode" which had been speculated on in the past.  Not sure of it's fate from here, and not sure if it'll stay being so happy - but apparently they aren't so fragile that something hitting them at speed means immediately explode.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Lithium

[Leroy Peterson]

step 1: use a filter (or mesh)

[iruvyouskyrine]

Lith was that the dude in SA with the WRX? He was pushing ~35psi on a EJ25 which i assume would put it in overspeed territory

[Piggaz]

For $265 you can monitor how fast it's spinning. 6 mm drill bit and some wiring... even comes with a pre cast spot for a sensor from Borg Warner. WHY don't people want this data baffles me.

 

[Kinkstaah]

Because it was never needed for any other turbo and rough approximations by power seem to have done the job 100% of the time [emoji14]

[sneakey pete]

drilling it is scary

[iruvyouskyrine]

Then just position the drill bit close your eyes and pull the trigger. What you can't see won't scare you 

Edited November 5, 2017 by iruvyouskyrine

[GREENMAHINEUK]

Thought I would add another dyno  result for an RB30 with a 9174 on a 6Boost manifold

Basisc Spec.

The motor is an OS Giken  RB30 with a big valve head and hks step 2 cams . ECU is Link with a custom trigger set up. IT has a single in tank fuel pump with 8mm feuel line using the oem feed as a second return. Power is 654 hp at the hubs  at 1.6 bar (23psi I think ) so not on the limit

Edited November 5, 2017 by GREENMAHINEUK

[Lithium]

38 minutes ago, GREENMAHINEUK said:

Thought I would add another dyno  result for an RB30 with a 9174 on a 6Boost manifold

Basisc Spec.

The motor is an OS Giken  RB30 with a big valve head and hks step 2 cams . ECU is Link with a custom trigger set up. IT has a single in tank fuel pump with 8mm feuel line using the oem feed as a second return. Power is 654 hp at the hubs  at 1.6 bar (23psi I think ) so not on the limit

Nice! What exhaust housing is that running ? 1.05 or 1.45? And is that pump gas ?

[Piggaz]

Turbine speed? 

[GREENMAHINEUK]

housing is 1.05.  Thats on pump gas momentum 99 which is pretty much the best we get over here . Ive no plans to run E85 (at the moment ) although the fuel system and injectors could handle it 

not sure about the turbine speed but will try and check . It isnt running crazy boost by any means (1.6) 

Im happy with the power . It will run a bigger turbo easily enough but its response and decent torque curve I am looking for . 

BTW engine is in a stagea .