Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[HarrisRacing]

14 hours ago, Kinkstaah said:

I can confirm the 7670 is great on a 2.8, so it'll be OK on a 2.6 and most likely pretty bad on a 2.0.

7163 is best for the 2L, but some SR20 people don't believe life exists until 5k and sideways in which case the 7670 will be ideal. There are actually a few reports on the 7670 on the 2L, I want to say a few were tuned by JEM up on their facebook page over the last year or so.

It is similar in size to a GTX3576, which is most would consider to be a pretty big ask for a 2L with a 7k rev limit and RWD.

Can you link me to or PM me some results of this? I have tons of experience with the 8374 on 2.8L, but 7670 has me interested for sure. For a pumpgas car 2.6 it would probably be an awesome fit.

[RICE RACING]

ok, well I spent a good time now going through Dave's VQ35 GTR data in all permutations from drags to street to roll races and loading up from 1st gear to higher and his is twin EFR7163 (IWG set up) and I cant see any real improvement *tangible* over the current 9180 set up we run, suffers exactly the same things I was describing earlier. I know its a 300cc odd larger engine of different type but best comparison I have to doing it myself.

I think at this stage it will show higher power potential with the same level (maybe better?) of response, but I cant see it being the magnitude of increase the customer wants, given this is a larger capacity engine by 300 odd cc but very similar rpm, and performance level between the two cars right now.

Edited June 28, 2018 by RICE RACING

[burn4005]

does the VQ35 have VVT? surely that would help it out a bit?

or are you just talking about transient response in the "sweet spot" like 70% of max rpm on/off throttle?

[RICE RACING]

6 minutes ago, burn4005 said:

does the VQ35 have VVT? surely that would help it out a bit?

or are you just talking about transient response in the "sweet spot" like 70% of max rpm on/off throttle?

Transient 0-100 tps/pps, 0 to 30psi, in all gears/road speeds.

As some said before dyno is one thing, the bit bloke wants is on road/track, its about the same from what I can see mate.

[VFRegal]

On 6/27/2018 at 4:52 PM, BakemonoRicer said:

Power delivery wise....I don't see how an SR20 w/ VCT is at any disadvantage compared to a MIVEC 9 engine.......

No point comparing RB to SR.... SR is renowned for its early torque & fat ass midrange.....it is the ultimate 2L engine.....

Sounds like it'll be a complete HOLD THE F**K ON experience.... I can't wait

For 7670 I think you would want sr with ve head. not so much det head in my opinion. Unless you are talking about drag racing.

Although I am not 100% on all the different mister bishi motors.

 

[K_arlstrom]

I'm looking at a top mount single on a 6-boost manifold for next summer, the RB26 should be able to handle pretty much anything I throw at it (fully forged etc). Currently got two N1 ball bearing turbos, a bit over 400rwhp and it's not enough  It will be used as a summer toy, some trackdays, dragrace and whatever sounds like fun. The issue is that I still want it to be useable on the road to get to car meets and hang out, or just go on a cruise in the sunset/sunrise.

EFR 8374 is the one I'm looking at, but I'm having a hard time deciding what size would be the perfect match for my engine, don't want to loose that much response

Soo... whats the conclusion among all you experienced people?

• 0,92 A/R internal gate VS 1,05 A/R external
• IF 1,05 A/R, worth it to go with two gates to keep it "true" twinscroll?
• Aluminum CHRA VS steel, how much difference does it make for the manifold?

[sneakey pete]

Everyone will say 1.05 external gate but IWG is sooooooo much easier to fit.
CHRA has identical sizes only difference is weight

[RICE RACING]

29 minutes ago, sneakey pete said:

Everyone will say 1.05 external gate but IWG is sooooooo much easier to fit.
CHRA has identical sizes only difference is weight

I personally love IWG, its got merits in that there is reduction in internal volume and this always improves response it also has a smaller valve area so the anti phase capsule (if running one of the after market actuators) needs less effect as the TIP is not pushing as hard through simple P=F/A relationship.

Use Borg Warner matchbot, there you will see what size WG area you need, its not as large as some would have you believe too

[HarrisRacing]

IWG!

So simple. So much power. My 2.75L was 3600 rpm boost in 3rd from a 2k punch. Also made 740 whp at 30 psi tapering to 25 on top on E85. Car would trap 128 mph in 1/4 on pumpgas and 19 or so psi. Gained about 150 whp when going to E85 and high boost from there (sorry never got track numbers)

[RICE RACING]

Fit up a good ECU and run phase + anti phase capsule control and you will get zero drop off on IWG :)

We hold 33psi to 9300rpm without any issues, its always a pain in the c*ck to do it with ghetto control's though.

[RICE RACING]

I know its a shit box rotary lol, but some may be interested in some of the set up analysis I do on matching, prior to going willy nilly on changing out turbo's + a raft of other things like main fuel table mapping etc.

On this application looked at the twin EFR7163 for my own use.

 

[K_arlstrom]

On 6/29/2018 at 12:56 AM, RICE RACING said:

I personally love IWG, its got merits in that there is reduction in internal volume and this always improves response it also has a smaller valve area so the anti phase capsule (if running one of the after market actuators) needs less effect as the TIP is not pushing as hard through simple P=F/A relationship.

Use Borg Warner matchbot, there you will see what size WG area you need, its not as large as some would have you believe too

On 6/29/2018 at 9:05 AM, HarrisRacing said:

IWG!

So simple. So much power. My 2.75L was 3600 rpm boost in 3rd from a 2k punch. Also made 740 whp at 30 psi tapering to 25 on top on E85. Car would trap 128 mph in 1/4 on pumpgas and 19 or so psi. Gained about 150 whp when going to E85 and high boost from there (sorry never got track numbers)

Been writing with Piggaz in PM (he is running a 2.8 vs my oversized 2.6), and he thinks the 0.92 is way to small. You have some good points, but fabricating the downpipe/WG-return won't be an issue, even if I like the simplicity with the integrated one. For now the 1.05 is ahead.

Did my homework on matchbot and I would get away with a 40mm unit even for low boost, no need for dual 60mm screamers

RICE: phase + anti phase capsule control? Like the attached image?

[RICE RACING]

Nup,

Phase = one valve

Anti Phase = one valve

Both controlled through ECU with their own linearizations depending on system requirements.

[afb312]

I am trying to picture this... I don't suppose anyone has a diagram to share? 

[K_arlstrom]

Maybe it's like example 3 in this manual? (where I stole the other picture) http://www.turbosmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/TS-0506-1001_Hypergate45_MAY_12_rev-2.pdf

[Lithium]

On 6/30/2018 at 9:18 AM, RICE RACING said:

I know its a shit box rotary lol, but some may be interested in some of the set up analysis I do on matching, prior to going willy nilly on changing out turbo's + a raft of other things like main fuel table mapping etc.

On this application looked at the twin EFR7163 for my own use.

Hahah that looks pretty familiar.  I do very similar, before matchbot I just had an array of spreadsheets I used but MB does help/make me a little lazier than I used to be but handy because I don't have as much spare time as I used to so anything which makes it easier ftw.   It's kinda handy that it dumps all the working out so you can effectively map  turbine flow maps from other manufacturers out by adjusting the turbine expansion ratio and monitoring the turbine corrected flow, just making sure that you take into account the correction factors used for each.

 

28 minutes ago, K_arlstrom said:

Maybe it's like example 3 in this manual? (where I stole the other picture) 

He's effectively talking about how much leverage is applied to each side of the WG, you need an ECU which can control two separate boost control solenoids independantly.  One is for controlling how much "opening force" is applied to the gate, and the other for how much "closing force" is applied.    If you can apply the full boost pressure to holding the gate closed, and non of the boost pressure to opening it - then you in theory can go way past the sprung pressure... but being able to fine tune both sides means you should be able to limit erratic behaviour as you reach boost targets.

The closest to this you will achieve with the typical "single direction" boost control setups is using a 4-port boost control solenoid - the example you linked is slightly simpler again, "single direction" but with a 3 port solenoid which means you never have the option of applying full pressure exclusively to either side of the gate.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Lithium

[RICE RACING]

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/sq6m_wastegate.html

Similar to this, only not as homo :) I use all kinds of iterations of this system different valves etc, but essentially this describes how it mechanically hooks up in one version at least.

Superior boost control, no need for homo CO2 lol...... Works at sea level and as high as you can go (highest I test is famous mountain in Retardistan).

[afb312]

Looks good. 

[RICE RACING]

Customer cleaned up the look a bit by fitting different cam phase trigger set up and the OG Blue Tomei cover, looks nicer and better when the cam belt slaps around on the various limiters. Little video of the idle attached too, there is not much room in the engine bay! twins would be a lesbian to fit for sure....  EFR9180 still going too :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2igtYCKCdo&feature=youtu.be

[BakemonoRicer]

On 6/28/2018 at 11:13 PM, VFRegal said:

For 7670 I think you would want sr with ve head. not so much det head in my opinion. Unless you are talking about drag racing.

Although I am not 100% on all the different mister bishi motors.

 

It's a street/time attack build mate.

Scotty actually wanted me to run an 8374....the 7670 was actually a small compromise.... in NO WAY will it be laggy.

Power will come on early and the car will be completely brutal at the limit. RB Killer? Yep. No issue to destroy anyone running -5's or less.

With the emtron I also have the option of running traction control....but I think itd be more scary/fun without it.

Once I finally find an RX7 the first thing I'd do is throw an 8374 1.45 on it..... & let that thing spin to the moon & back.