Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[Lithium]

Nice data! Cheers for sharing, and imho there is room for a little more compressor with these hahaha - they should give them even just a mild update on the cold side

[VFRegal]

16 hours ago, MaximuSmurf said:

Sure:
 - Forged engine, pistons, rings, rods. Head studs, main studs, nitto HG, stronger valve springs, RAS.
 - Full-race T4 TS Manifold (ewg but with the ewg ports blocked off with vband plates so I can use in future if I want)
 - BW EFR7163 0.80 TS. TS Bov. TS Dual port 24psi actuator
- Bosch 1650cc injectors in top feel rail. All braided lines, aftermarket fuel filter.
 - Havoc straight intake and 2.5" custom intercooler piping with new Aeroflow core
 - 3" vband dump to cat, resonator, muffler (3" all the way)
 - Link G4+ S15 plugin ECU
 - Walbro 416lph fuel pump direct wired to battery

That's about it for the turbo / engine / power setup.

I really love the result but alot of me would be hard pressed to recommend it given the cost and issues I've faced. When something like a new GTX2867R Gen2 will perform 90% as well in basically bolt on configuration with stock manifold etc..... certainly way less headaches.

That's awesome ! Glad to hear you got some good results. I might have to follow your lead to get mine sorted.
Did you end up using the 4 port mac valve ? I assume you had 24psi spring combo in the actuator ?

Cheers,

[MaximuSmurf]

3 minutes ago, VFRegal said:

That's awesome ! Glad to hear you got some good results. I might have to follow your lead to get mine sorted.
Did you end up using the 4 port mac valve ? I assume you had 24psi spring combo in the actuator ?

Cheers,

No just a 3 port. Most people I've heard say not much advantage to 4port. And yeah it's the 24psi spring that comes in it, they have different psi versions you can buy.

 

By all accounts you'd have a much cleaner more stake and better result with ewg

[Nismo 3.2ish]

I was wondering if anyone has increased the compression and or had a  port and polish done "after" changing to the EFR or another turbo, if so do you have any back to back information on the result

My CR is 8.1:1 atm  ,   talking about increasing it up to 10.5 and having a P&P, depending on advice once the motor is down and measurements taken

With the 3.2lt  the 8374/1.05ar starts early but runs out of puff around 6000, might go to the 1.45ar but I will see how it runs on the road first

The 9180 is not out of the question but I doubt I will go there  , don't need that much power for the street and things might start braking over 800HP , like the Getrag and there is enough twist as it is.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Nismo 3.2ish
mistake

[Full-Race Geoff]

increasing compression typically corresponds to an increase in HP / lb boost.  it does not change spool in my experience.  That said the exhaust flow requirement is likely to go up in some capacity, particularly with the p&p so increasing turbine swallowing capacity to 1.45 a/r would make sense as a consideration provided youre aware of turbo shaft speed. 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

1 hour ago, Full-Race Geoff said:

increasing compression typically corresponds to an increase in HP / lb boost.  it does not change spool in my experience.

Ummm?

[burn4005]

My take is Higher compression engines are:

-more thermally efficient, less heat out the exhaust (lower EGTs) which spools the turbo slightly slower. BSFC improves.

-better off boost due to torque improvements

-won't eat as much boost (dynamic compression) as low compression engines do.

on a large engine with a small turbo (8374 on a 3.2 is a small turbo in my mind) it makes sense as you won't get much boost into the motor anyway before you overspeed the thing. I just hit the speed limit of an 8374 on a 2.6 at 8000rpm and 27psi at 490kw. so a 3.2 with the same VE% at around 6300 rpm you'll have the same boost limit. if you rev any higher you'll either have to taper it off, or run less boost, as the torque produced is really going to work your gearbox.

its hard to know where the 1.05a/r housings limit is, as we were stonewalling the compressor and had a compressor speed limiting function in the ECU, adding boost wasn't really making any more power as the ECU was just pulling the target down anyway. it would be interesting to throw a 9174 core in there to see what happens with the 1.05 as it would be running near peak efficiency where this one is falling off. 

I wish I had an EMAP sensor, but the wastegate duty was quite telling. at about 7000rpm and up we had to really start ramping the duty in to maintain boost target, whereas below this point it was pretty flat. compressor efficiency was really starting to dive up here so to maintain shaft power by increasing exhaust expansion ratio it looked like this:

(I'm using a 4 port 12w MAC valve and a 7psi spring in the gate, also using solenoid deadtime function in the emtron so real duty is about 12% more)

 

running the thing on E85 also makes the decision much easier.

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by burn4005

[Nismo 3.2ish]

12 hours ago, Full-Race Geoff said:

increasing compression typically corresponds to an increase in HP / lb boost.  it does not change spool in my experience.  That said the exhaust flow requirement is likely to go up in some capacity, particularly with the p&p so increasing turbine swallowing capacity to 1.45 a/r would make sense as a consideration provided youre aware of turbo shaft speed. 

It will be interesting to see if it does come on earlier , I thought the higher CR would get it going but it will sharpen it up to 3000 I would think

I am just going to go with the setup as is,  I really do not need anymore top end power.

Cannot help myself and have to see how it runs on the street

[Nismo 3.2ish]

10 hours ago, burn4005 said:

My take is Higher compression engines are:

-more thermally efficient, less heat out the exhaust (lower EGTs) which spools the turbo slightly slower. BSFC improves.

-better off boost due to torque improvements

-won't eat as much boost (dynamic compression) as low compression engines do.

on a large engine with a small turbo (8374 on a 3.2 is a small turbo in my mind) it makes sense as you won't get much boost into the motor anyway before you overspeed the thing. I just hit the speed limit of an 8374 on a 2.6 at 8000rpm and 27psi at 490kw. so a 3.2 with the same VE% at around 6300 rpm you'll have the same boost limit. if you rev any higher you'll either have to taper it off, or run less boost, as the torque produced is really going to work your gearbox.

its hard to know where the 1.05a/r housings limit is, as we were stonewalling the compressor and had a compressor speed limiting function in the ECU, adding boost wasn't really making any more power as the ECU was just pulling the target down anyway. it would be interesting to throw a 9174 core in there to see what happens with the 1.05 as it would be running near peak efficiency where this one is falling off. 

I wish I had an EMAP sensor, but the wastegate duty was quite telling. at about 7000rpm and up we had to really start ramping the duty in to maintain boost target, whereas below this point it was pretty flat. compressor efficiency was really starting to dive up here so to maintain shaft power by increasing exhaust expansion ratio it looked like this:

(I'm using a 4 port 12w MAC valve and a 7psi spring in the gate, also using solenoid deadtime function in the emtron so real duty is about 12% more)

 

running the thing on E85 also makes the decision much easier.

 

Thanks for your info, some of it went over my head , I have to rely on my tuner and motor builder to get it right, lol

I thought the higher CR would help it spool a little earlier but as you explain it , maybe not.

But it will make it sharper off boost , so that's a win

The tuner wanted to put a 9180  on it but I wanted response and we went 8374 / 1.05.

Have a speed sensor on the turbo and sure it will be looked after, doubt it will hit 6000rpm before it runs out of puff.

I have crap loads of torque now and the 9180's extra grunt worries me, I know the Getrag is a strong box , BUT?

Wouldn't have done this work except I have the E85 20klm away now 

[burn4005]

E85 is f**king gold. Even if you don't use it to its potential timing wise it is great engine insurance. Egts are low, it won't knock, engine is super clean. Happy days

[Nismo 3.2ish]

21 minutes ago, burn4005 said:

E85 is f**king gold. Even if you don't use it to its potential timing wise it is great engine insurance. Egts are low, it won't knock, engine is super clean. Happy days

Thanks mate , it's now back to the waiting game , that's the worst thing about stuffing around with cars, it was a shock when I first started , sadly I am getting used of it , LOL 

[Full-Race Geoff]

17 hours ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Ummm?

ive done a back to back with my friend Evans Tuning, where the only change was pistons (CR).  if youve got data otherwise im always happy to learn

[Lithium]

21 hours ago, burn4005 said:

My take is Higher compression engines are:

-more thermally efficient, less heat out the exhaust (lower EGTs) which spools the turbo slightly slower. BSFC improves.

-better off boost due to torque improvements

Pretty much everything you said in your post in regards to the turbo match and compression are along the lines of my thinking, so I'm not going to write a huge wordy one - nice

I think turbine flow on EFRs is often a scape goat for when EMAP spirals as the compressor efficiency rolls over on some of the EFR range.

4 hours ago, Full-Race Geoff said:

ive done a back to back with my friend Evans Tuning, where the only change was pistons (CR).  if youve got data otherwise im always happy to learn

I've never seen a decisive result which shows any significant improvement in boost threshold either, and can't think of any convincing reason why more compression would directly drive the turbo harder by enough of a margin to give any significant gains.  There are definitely improvements in torque from improved fuel conversion efficiency so it's a very worth while change as it also comes into effect off-boost.    

I suspect people put down the increase torque they experience when driving a car with more compression to extra spool, and realistically the fact the engine can accelerate the car harder will mean time vs boost will improve on the road - but that's likely more because the rpm have picked up more in the same time, more rpm = more exhaust flow = able to drive the turbo better so there is a response improvement, just the cause and effect are not as direct as some might thing

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Lithium

[burn4005]

ive done a back to back with my friend Evans Tuning, where the only change was pistons (CR).  if youve got data otherwise im always happy to learn

I'd like to test that theory about turbine flow, Geoff could I place a standing order for an 8474 supercore [emoji4]

 

[sneakey pete]

If you want to explode one i could do you a good deal on my munted unit ?

13 hours ago, Nismo 3.2ish said:

 

Wouldn't have done this work except I have the E85 20klm away now 

If you don't mind me asking, which servo?
For future road trip planning purposes...

[Nismo 3.2ish]

13 minutes ago, sneakey pete said:

If you want to explode one i could do you a good deal on my munted unit ?

If you don't mind me asking, which servo?
For future road trip planning purposes...

HI Pete

It is at Pacific palms shopping centre  , it is a Metro station , actually call it Charlotte Bay.

Coming from Sydney, turn right after Bulhadehlah down The Lakesway , it is on the left hand side. From Forster Keys heading towards Sydney it is 20Klms on the right

Trouble is , no one knows they sell it , no advertising , not even a sign out the front saying they sell E85 and they are getting one more refill and if it doesn't go well over the Xmas break they will not stock it anymore. A bad time for me to be off the road as I was probably their best customer, lol

[Lithium]

https://www.borgwarner.com/newsroom/press-releases/2018/10/26/trusted-from-raceways-to-driveways-borgwarner-debuts-new-products-at-2018-sema-show

84mm and 92mm compressors for the EFR range are officially being released and will be shown at SEMA this week coming

[sneakey pete]

So.. anyone want to buy 1.5 8374s?

[burn4005]

Full race Geoff I'll take one 8474 supercore thanks

[burn4005]

Also what the hell is a 9274 going to be useful on? That is going to be rediculous comp flow for such a turbine.