Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[sneakey pete]

20 hours ago, Myskyliner33 said:

Hi all

 

Currently building a nitto 2.8 with cnc head tomei pro 270 10.25 cams for my 33 gtr. Was going to run a 8374 for a responsive street car but have decided to change the box to a 34 item for strength.

With changing the box im going to retain the 4:1 ratio and was looking to change the turbo to either a  9174 or 9180 and retain the response but gain a few more hp up top. 

What are your thoughts and has anyone run a combo above and can tell me what it's like to drive. 

I'm not looking for power numbers as I just want a responsive car that is fast. What sort of full boost rpm will i be looking at.

 

Cheers

Neal

gearbox changes the ratios which changes the torque delivered, this doesn't effect the turbo response however. 8374 should do fine for what you want.

[Jds14]

18 hours ago, RICE RACING said:

What cams do you have in it? Got any logs from the road in 1st 2nd gears etc?

I see what you mean though

Car has 270 with 11mm lift. Lots of headwork.. spoke to tuner today he said turbo was making 30 psi easy but would not hold it up top.. we are going to check the gates. Got a speed sencor on order

[RICE RACING]

21 minutes ago, Jds14 said:

Car has 270 with 11mm lift. Lots of headwork.. spoke to tuner today he said turbo was making 30 psi easy but would not hold it up top.. we are going to check the gates. Got a speed sencor on order

On all of the turbos I do run anti phase control to counter the effect of TIP increases relative to increasing rpm, this will be what is needed, but read Geoff's comments on lack of sophistication for some. If you can do that then will help with MAP not holding to the rev limiter.

 

[Lithium]

20 hours ago, Full-Race Geoff said:

I would like to experiment with a function or table that will correlate shaft speed to wastegate position.  it would be neat to drop the boost such that your riding the max turbo speed settings rather than a particular boost target .Shaft speed rises very quickly as you may know so a PID feedback loop seems appropriate to me. 

in the motec, I couldn't find a direct way to do this.  I have a well known pikes peak customer I work with who run two tables - they map both boost target and wastegate position feed forward based on altitude so we are able to closely control the turbo rpm. We also have a turbo rpm limit which opens the wastegate if we over spin the turbo. There are a couple of parameters to adjust with that limit but it is not intended to control turbo rpm. We tried last year without success, so contacted motec who told us this is designed as a safety limit and isn't sophisticated enough as a control.  Although this appears to be easy to make work with the syvecs / life racing system... so im intrigued

I wouldn't have really thought targetting a max compressor tip speed would be an ideal boost control strategy, or do you mean have a compressor tip speed as a somewhere between a limit and a target, so say (to be overly simplified about it) you set a 30psi target boost pressure from 3500 to 8000rpm, with an additional 127,000rpm max turbine speed so it maintains 30psi unless turbine speed hits the limit, then bleed it back?

It does sound like it would be fun to experiment with, however.  Motec (and some other ECU manufacturers) also have log analysis software which would be able to do functions like you describe there in regards to the correlating shaft speed to wastegate position if you have the sensors attached.  At first thought I'd be surprised if there is a constant correlation between those two but the data would be very interesting to look over.     

As you say, "as delivered" most started ECU packages (Syvecs included, I thought?) don't really use the shaft speed for targetting - so much as for setting a limit before stopping the party if things go past currently defined limit, as opposed to a closed loop control trying to target the shaft speed.

Does sound like an interesting thing to have a play with in M1 Build if I end up with the time and opportunity to do some testing with that kind of thing, though.

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Lithium

[RICE RACING]

 

Syvecs/Life Racing (same thing) has everything standard, MAP, PRP, Turbo, control are all there. If you need them or not is up to you or your 'tuna' to exploit. No need to guess or get someone to make it, all been done for you and it works too.

[RICE RACING]

On the EFR's with multiple cars running F88 and S8 ECU's I have Turbo (speed) and Map (boost) targets, which has priority is totally a function of a variety of parameters. It's this superior control as to why I can run the things so consistently at a set turbine speed and not broken one yet.......  Though I am sure Geoff A hole puckers quite a lot when he see's the numerous logs of many cars we send through

WARRANTY VOID ! haha

[HarrisRacing]

8374 or 8474 IWG 2.75L 79mm stroker stock bore RB26? Still on small cams (Poncam A), but same motor made 740 whp 615 wtq on 30 psi peak dropping to 24/5 psi on top to keep ID 1350x from going over 100% DC. I'm getting back in the game and have a 6 boost IWG manifold, 8374 EFR .92 that has a chipped turbine (but still boosted just fine when pulled).

Could go to REAL cams this time since motor is out and I have the oil pump off now...

 

[Lithium]

On 5/9/2019 at 1:19 AM, RICE RACING said:

Syvecs/Life Racing (same thing) has everything standard, MAP, PRP, Turbo, control are all there. If you need them or not is up to you or your 'tuna' to exploit. No need to guess or get someone to make it, all been done for you and it works too.

As much I was half just giving a cheeky wind up, I did actually underestimate how configurable the Syvecs is.

My limited experience with it so far has been a general look over the software and specs for a project I will be involved with to investigate whether Syvecs was going to be appropriate overall for the project.   It was the front-runner by default as it is they provided the only real stand-alone option we are aware of which we could get capable of controlling BMW DCT ... but was still worth doing due diligence.   After this discussion I went a lot deeper into the boost control (and a few other) bits.  As you say, in terms of the "motorsport" related features it is really quite packed right from the outset - looking forward to having a play with one when the aforementioned project reaches that stage.

6 hours ago, HarrisRacing said:

8374 or 8474 IWG 2.75L 79mm stroker stock bore RB26? Still on small cams (Poncam A), but same motor made 740 whp 615 wtq on 30 psi peak dropping to 24/5 psi on top to keep ID 1350x from going over 100% DC

Tbh I think a LOT of us want to see an EFR8474 on a strong RB setup and are looking for a guinea pig.  What answer are you expecting, here?    No point if you are going to stay with injectors which can't keep up with your existing fuel setup however, so depends on whether you are willing to bring the rest of the car up to spec to handle what the 8474 is likely to be able to offer.   If you do, please don't use a .92a/r hotside on it.

[Jds14]

On 5/8/2019 at 6:36 PM, RICE RACING said:

On all of the turbos I do run anti phase control to counter the effect of TIP increases relative to increasing rpm, this will be what is needed, but read Geoff's comments on lack of sophistication for some. If you can do that then will help with MAP not holding to the rev limiter.

 

Silly question but was is tip?

[Dale FZ1]

3 minutes ago, Jds14 said:

Silly question but was is tip?

Turbine Inlet Pressure

aka EMAP Exhaust Manifold Absolute Pressure

[Lithium]

6 minutes ago, Jds14 said:

Silly question but was is tip?

Turbine inlet pressure.  Speaking overly simply, the wastegate works on the balance of boost pressure, turbine inlet pressure, and spring pressure applied to the valve.  The spring pressure offsets that to start with, but you can manipulate pressure on top or bottom of the wastegate using various methods to get more and more control of the balance across the valve.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Lithium

[sneakey pete]

This happened.
Mainline Hub dyno so subtract what, 15% to the power?

Pretty happy with it, probably another 5psi of boost to throw in once I get the speed sensor sorted and can have a bit of an idea of what its doing.

Apparently the trail off at the end isn't the boost control at full duty cycle etc either, so its not any limit with the gate itself. but as it is i'm not fussed as its probably helpful with turbo speed

If i get time before i go back to work i'll get some logs from some road pulls.

[sneakey pete]

got time to do a 2000-5000rpm pull in 4th on a flat road. B0ost is all there by 4000rpm. took 5.5 seconds to go from 2000 to 4000rpm and just over 1 to go the next 1000. She's rapid.
Very happy with that.

[welshy_32ZILA]

It's ALIVE.

Still a fair way off anything meaningful but considering it's been off the road near 6mths I'm pretty happy. 

 

 

[Lithium]

8 hours ago, welshy_32ZILA said:

It's ALIVE.

Still a fair way off anything meaningful but considering it's been off the road near 6mths I'm pretty happy. 

 

Nice work!  Hope you are going to have a better filter than that on it, though haha.   

So it's still a reasonable way away from dyno time then?

[welshy_32ZILA]

7 hours ago, Lithium said:

Nice work!  Hope you are going to have a better filter than that on it, though haha.   

So it's still a reasonable way away from dyno time then?

Cheers lith, 

Yea I've got a filter setup, the turboguard is just for a bit of show.  I'I'amway for work next week and Ash at WTS isn't ready for it till after I get back to wire the e888, egts, and c125 up then it'll go for a tune after that. 

[Jds14]

Has anyone fitted an sxe372 compressor wheel and housing on an efr9180

[burn4005]

Waste of time thinking about it, you can't get the shaft out of the EFR chra as it's an interference fit to the bearings so impossible to balance correctly unless you have a large frame VSR.

 

 

[Full-Race Geoff]

On 5/22/2019 at 2:28 AM, Jds14 said:

Has anyone fitted an sxe372 compressor wheel and housing on an efr9180

yes, its called EFR 9280

[Lithium]

8 hours ago, Full-Race Geoff said:

yes, its called EFR 9280

Shame SX-E style housings don't come as options for the EFRs.

Have you seen any results from the Black series aside from Eric's from 2 years ago with a prototype?