Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[Piggaz]

8 minutes ago, burn4005 said:

interesting. I remember borg had their own prototype on display a few years ago. was on an EFR turbo starting with a 7 though. would be cool to see this in action. I wonder if they're buying EFR housings from Borg to modify or if they are casting their own (investment casting stainless is no small feat!)

https://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273897&amp=1

 

that guy there.

[welshy_32ZILA]

My understanding is they're casting their own housings. That's the guy I purchased my turbo from when they were first released. 

 

In other news mines gone to the wiring guru to get the last of the wiring finished. After that it will be off to the tuner hopefully post some results in the coming weeks good or bad. 

[Lithium]

14 hours ago, welshy_32ZILA said:

My understanding is they're casting their own housings. That's the guy I purchased my turbo from when they were first released. 

 

In other news mines gone to the wiring guru to get the last of the wiring finished. After that it will be off to the tuner hopefully post some results in the coming weeks good or bad. 

Awesome!   Good luck, look forward to results.   Yours is an R32 GT-R eh?   It looks like someone has a mint R34 GT-R with one ready to go on an RB28...

https://www.facebook.com/FABLABqld/posts/2441855702725193

 

[Full-Race Geoff]

On 8/2/2019 at 1:16 AM, burn4005 said:

interesting. I remember borg had their own prototype on display a few years ago. was on an EFR turbo starting with a 7 though. would be cool to see this in action. I wonder if they're buying EFR housings from Borg to modify or if they are casting their own (investment casting stainless is no small feat!)

ive got a couple of these laying around if anyone is interested.  i was underwhelmed

[burn4005]

17 minutes ago, Lithium said:

Awesome!   Good luck, look forward to results.   Yours is an R32 GT-R eh?   It looks like someone has a mint R34 GT-R with one ready to go on an RB28...

https://www.facebook.com/FABLABqld/posts/2441855702725193

 

thats pretty serious. 4" dump and 1.45 A/R rear. that is going to haul.

[Lithium]

28 minutes ago, burn4005 said:

thats pretty serious. 4" dump and 1.45 A/R rear. that is going to haul.

Yeah, they are really doing it right.   I suspect that is going to be quite an impressive result, hope they share it.

[R.3.2.G.T.R]

I've just been playing with video and Motec Logging to overlay some gauges onto my videos.  Now the hard work is done, should be easy to add this for future videos.   
So here is my 8374 on 3.0L at a recent event.  Running around 23psi. (260kpa)
Will be good to get the 8474 on for comparo in some weeks - will definitively do a back to back test.
(I should add that we do have boost by rpm - so we are not trying to make full boost at 3500rpm, hence you'll see a more gradual rise in boost with revs)
 
 

Does it nose over after 7000rpm at all?

[R32 TT]

2 hours ago, R.3.2.G.T.R said:

On 8/1/2019 at 2:24 PM, R32 TT said:

I've just been playing with video and Motec Logging to overlay some gauges onto my videos.  Now the hard work is done, should be easy to add this for future videos.   
So here is my 8374 on 3.0L at a recent event.  Running around 23psi. (260kpa)
Will be good to get the 8474 on for comparo in some weeks - will definitively do a back to back test.
(I should add that we do have boost by rpm - so we are not trying to make full boost at 3500rpm, hence you'll see a more gradual rise in boost with revs)
 
 

Does it nose over after 7000rpm at all?

Yeah it does begin falling off at 7000 - but not sharply - I'll sometimes rev a bit past 7500 if I need to hold a gear.  Typically I find myself changing at around 6800-7000 not for any other reason than it just feels right.

For those interested here is exhaust pressure vs boost.   Generally seeing around 1.3:1..    Crossover where exhaust begins exceeding boost is around 6200-6300.   (this is the 1.05A/R)

I am hoping that the 8474 being more efficient at higher boost levels will mean lower shaft speed required, less drive to the turbine and therefore exhaust pressure will still stay reasonable for the power goals I am after.  (while maintaining good low down boost threshold)

 

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by R32 TT

[Lithium]

54 minutes ago, R32 TT said:

Yeah it does begin falling off at 7000 - but not sharply - I'll sometimes rev a bit past 7500 if I need to hold a gear.  Typically I find myself changing at around 6800-7000 not for any other reason than it just feels right.

For those interested here is exhaust pressure vs boost.   Generally seeing around 1.3:1..    Crossover where exhaust begins exceeding boost is around 6200-6300.   (this is the 1.05A/R)

I am hoping that the 8474 being more efficient at higher boost levels will mean lower shaft speed required, less drive to the turbine and therefore exhaust pressure will still stay reasonable for the power goals I am after.  (while maintaining good low down boost threshold)

 

 

Nice, cheers for sharing that!  I've been wanting to see EMAP data on an EFR/RB combo for ages but so far anyone who has had it haven't passed it on... even if they are equipped to    

So are you definitely going EFR8474, and on a 3litre?     What kind of power is it making at the moment?   Very interested to see what EMAP does, I suspect that especially at those higher rpm the EMAP should increase at a more leisurely pace, and the WAY higher compressor efficiency at higher flow levels I'm guessing will really hold power quite a lot nicer - would be very interesting... especially with this data on board.  

[R.3.2.G.T.R]

I've just been playing with video and Motec Logging to overlay some gauges onto my videos.  Now the hard work is done, should be easy to add this for future videos.   
So here is my 8374 on 3.0L at a recent event.  Running around 23psi. (260kpa)
Will be good to get the 8474 on for comparo in some weeks - will definitively do a back to back test.
(I should add that we do have boost by rpm - so we are not trying to make full boost at 3500rpm, hence you'll see a more gradual rise in boost with revs)
 
 

Wow, just looking at how quickly it hits full boost again between gears, insane

What size exhaust are you running with your setup?

Have you retained or upgraded the bw inbuilt bov?

I assume you opted for 3 port Mac valve instead of std offering

[R32 TT]

Thanks!  Its does recover pretty quickly.

It tapers up to a 4" Dump pipe off the back of the turbo. Then at around where the cat would be it tapers down to a 3.5" Titanium the rest of the way -  with two straight through Ti mufflers.

There is a  single 50mm Turbosmart gate to atmosphere off a divided 6 boost manifold. (single wastegate port though)

Standard BW BOV in compressor cover  being used.

Edited August 6, 2019 by R32 TT

[Lithium]

Someone I know had a drift car on the dyno today running an RB32 on E85 with a 1.05a/r EFR9180 on the side of it.  Is running an RB26 head with Tomei Pro cams and a bit of head porting and a Hypertune intake manifold on the side.

He initially tuned it with a flat boost curve until it started rolling over, which happened at a bit over 600kw @ hubs on ~25psi - at which point the VE started rolling over bad, but compressor speed at this point is only ~101,000rpm so it would be easy to assume this is just a hotside restriction, which is what a lot of people conclude when tuning EFRs on RBs.

This is where things get interesting, tracing the speed line for 101,000rpm through the compressor map to where it intersects with pressure ratio 2.7 (at ~84lb/min, way below the 95lb/min claimed for these things) the efficiency has absolutely plummeted - like WAY below 60% (not actually plotted, but it's pretty clear looking at the map).   The trick is that at PRs of >3 the efficiency starts holding much much better, getting into the >90lb/min area without going under 60% efficiency at points... so he decided to try feeding it a bunch through the midrange until he reached the max compressor speed and holding/bleeding it back as everything would allow, ending up with 35psi bleeding back to 24psi.

End result is a HUGE power delivery.  For reference, a full weight R32 GT-R making 580awkw on this dyno has run 9.9 @ 147mph with an H-pattern.

Quite interesting getting another almost 100kw from a setup that appeared tapped out... shows the value of having and understanding flow maps and other data on what is happening, then using to match to what you are doing. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Lithium

[R32 TT]

I like that he appears in the reflection to be enjoying a relaxing cigarette after sex.

[Nosure]

So far I got 610hp on 20psi with 8474 1.45a/r. And 280 272 cams.  

My 3582 gen2 0.82a/r with type b cams Made around 500hp on 20psi.  But 500 rpm sooner.

 

the 8474 already over 100k rpm. I’m not sure it was read wrong or something else. Will do some cam adjustment and boost up early next week.  

[Komdotkom]

On 07/08/2019 at 12:52 PM, Lithium said:

Someone I know had a drift car on the dyno today running an RB32 on E85 with a 1.05a/r EFR9180 on the side of it.  Is running an RB26 head with Tomei Pro cams and a bit of head porting and a Hypertune intake manifold on the side.

He initially tuned it with a flat boost curve until it started rolling over, which happened at a bit over 600kw @ hubs on ~25psi - at which point the VE started rolling over bad, but compressor speed at this point is only ~101,000rpm so it would be easy to assume this is just a hotside restriction, which is what a lot of people conclude when tuning EFRs on RBs.

This is where things get interesting, tracing the speed line for 101,000rpm through the compressor map to where it intersects with pressure ratio 2.7 (at ~84lb/min, way below the 95lb/min claimed for these things) the efficiency has absolutely plummeted - like WAY below 60% (not actually plotted, but it's pretty clear looking at the map).   The trick is that at PRs of >3 the efficiency starts holding much much better, getting into the >90lb/min area without going under 60% efficiency at points... so he decided to try feeding it a bunch through the midrange until he reached the max compressor speed and holding/bleeding it back as everything would allow, ending up with 35psi bleeding back to 24psi.

End result is a HUGE power delivery.  For reference, a full weight R32 GT-R making 580awkw on this dyno has run 9.9 @ 147mph with an H-pattern.

Quite interesting getting another almost 100kw from a setup that appeared tapped out... shows the value of having and understanding flow maps and other data on what is happening, then using to match to what you are doing. 

 

That must be a handful, 200kw to 400kw in 500rpm.

Thanks for taking the time to post something interesting and some real world results.

[Lithium]

7 hours ago, Nosure said:

So far I got 610hp on 20psi with 8474 1.45a/r. And 280 272 cams.  

My 3582 gen2 0.82a/r with type b cams Made around 500hp on 20psi.  But 500 rpm sooner

the 8474 already over 100k rpm. I’m not sure it was read wrong or something else. Will do some cam adjustment and boost up early next week.  

Between the big housing and big cams that extra lag isn't too surprising but the turbine speed is a little unexpected.  What kind of Dyno is it being tuned in - and was this E85 or petrol?

I have heard of people getting the blade count wrong (set to 12 instead of 14 blades), which would inflate the reported turbine speed.  Looks like the 8474 is probably a 14-blade wheel so on the off chance your ECU is set to 12 blades you could actually be pushing 90000rpm or less.

 

Either way cheers for the update and good luck with the rest of the tune, be keen to see a Dyno plot (with rpm) when it's done if you are able !

Edited August 11, 2019 by Lithium

[Nosure]

500rpm lag isn’t too bad. Some cams adjustment might fix or help it. But turbo speed is too high for only 20psi.  

Hp/psi is good.  20psi 610 awhp Is better than most turbo this size.  I just hope it can make around 700awhp with good response. 

[Lithium]

12 hours ago, Nosure said:

500rpm lag isn’t too bad. Some cams adjustment might fix or help it. But turbo speed is too high for only 20psi.  

Hp/psi is good.  20psi 610 awhp Is better than most turbo this size.  I just hope it can make around 700awhp with good response. 

Again, verify that the turbine speed calculation is configured correctly - or that there are no boost leaks or anything.  That rpm doesn't align with what it should be doing so it makes it seem like the calibration is wrong, or there is some other issue which will end up making performance fall short... though the power you are making at that low boost makes it seem like it's performing ok.   The rpm would make a lot more sense if your ECU was configured for 12-blades when it SHOULD be set for 14...

700awhp should be well within it's capabilities  

Edited August 11, 2019 by Lithium

[Nosure]

4 hours ago, Lithium said:

Again, verify that the turbine speed calculation is configured correctly - or that there are no boost leaks or anything.  That rpm doesn't align with what it should be doing so it makes it seem like the calibration is wrong, or there is some other issue which will end up making performance fall short... though the power you are making at that low boost makes it seem like it's performing ok.   The rpm would make a lot more sense if your ECU was configured for 12-blades when it SHOULD be set for 14...

700awhp should be well within it's capabilities  

Yeah. There is no leak or any mechanical problem.  I will check it configured 12 or 14 blade. 

[Nosure]

8 hours ago, Lithium said:

Again, verify that the turbine speed calculation is configured correctly - or that there are no boost leaks or anything.  That rpm doesn't align with what it should be doing so it makes it seem like the calibration is wrong, or there is some other issue which will end up making performance fall short... though the power you are making at that low boost makes it seem like it's performing ok.   The rpm would make a lot more sense if your ECU was configured for 12-blades when it SHOULD be set for 14...

700awhp should be well within it's capabilities  

I checked. It’s 14 blades. And we did some cams adjustment first. Did not help much. But still make 430awhp on 14psi.  So this 8474 still make more hp/psi even on very low boost.  I just need turn boost up until reach 125k rpm.  If it’s accurate wheel speed reading i think It will hit speed limit by under 25psi.