Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[Stixbnr32]

Yeah there were a number of things I noticed in that video

Hollinger was quiet AF - went online to see if they had a new version out haha

1000cc injectors pushing 955 wheel HP on 98  with 1 pump hmmm I make 600 wheel HP with 1065cc at 64% Duty on 98 - so is it possible he at 100% IDC?

Surely its engine HP so prob 800 wheel.

 

[warin]

2 hours ago, Lithium said:

Hey mate, sounds like a fun build Some pretty ambiguous or open to opinion comments in there so some background on what you've had and where you're coming from would help.

Your previous "big turbos" you've had, what are they are what kind of power have you made with them?   Is this the same engine spec as you used with them?   

It'd be good to quantify what an acceptably responsive turbo would be for you, and what "too small" means - as an EFR8474 should be fine on a 3litre depending on how much work you're expecting it to do.   What is the pre-nitrous power target?   

Also, a 400 shot of nitrous - I see you like to party.  You may need to be very sure you have enough hotside to support the inevitable exhaust gas flow which is going to result from this combo

I’d like a minimum of 600hp on 98. I’ve had 62mm -> 80mm turbos and made 550hp -> 900hp (not turbo limited).  The next turbo is like to be streetable, meaning when I plant the foot at 3,000rpm it has boost and at 4,500rpm I want it to PROPERLY pull (ie full boost).  

I expect (perhaps wrong) that the 68mm 8474 would be responsive on a 3L with cams. I was thinking it should put down 600hp no sweat. 
 

I can of course get the 9280 with a small hotside if that spools adequately. 
 

cheers!

[burn4005]

yep 8474 will be a great option for that kind of power. you'll need a big wastegate (or two) if you want to vent the exhaust volume a 400 shot of Nos will provide.

 

depends if you want to use NOS as a torque fill/gas producer for spool assistance to get the 9280 moving.

 

if not the 8474 is a streetable turbo, the 9280 less so.

if you've got 400hp of nos on tap and a good tuner a 9280 would be a beast.

Edited January 21, 2020 by burn4005

[Full-Race Geoff]

17 hours ago, warin said:

I’d like a minimum of 600hp on 98. I’ve had 62mm -> 80mm turbos and made 550hp -> 900hp (not turbo limited).  The next turbo is like to be streetable, meaning when I plant the foot at 3,000rpm it has boost and at 4,500rpm I want it to PROPERLY pull

this is the natural evolution ?  Youve got a good grasp on reality (experience will do that) and yes fully agree 8474 will be a fiend here.  but the 400 shot!?! thats a lot of nitrous.  On the Papadakis / Aasbo drift toyota, they use a 100 shot on the EFR8474 and its been a solid combination..

 

14 hours ago, burn4005 said:

yep 8474 will be a great option for that kind of power. you'll need a big wastegate (or two) if you want to vent the exhaust volume a 400 shot of Nos will provide.  depends if you want to use NOS as a torque fill/gas producer for spool assistance to get the 9280 moving. if not the 8474 is a streetable turbo, the 9280 less so.  if you've got 400hp of nos on tap and a good tuner a 9280 would be a beast.

^^^^^^^  +1

[warin]

The 400shot will just be for the drags, 300 will probably be just as fast , it’ll be gear and progressive with the Emtron doing all the work (once it’s dialled in). The Supra needs a fair bit of suspension tweaking to get it to plant properly at the drags anyhow (and some good tyres)  

600+ is plenty for the street. 

[burn4005]

8474 is the ticket then. if you're using nitrous as the power adder rather than boosting to the moon then a 8474 will do it.

actually, even an 8374 will meet your goals provided you can wastegate the additional nitrous exhaust flow effectively. if you only want 600hp of turbo airflow and nitrous provides above that.

 

but if you want to be able to stretch the turbo airflow to 900hp then nitrous on top of that for drags then 8474 is probably the go.

Edited January 21, 2020 by burn4005

[Full-Race Geoff]

agree 8474 .. and if 300 shot is in the offing, 1.45 a/r makes a lot of sense.  if you need the turbo i would be happy to help accomodate.  we have all variations in stock, same day shipping

[taijohnsen]

Quick question for Geoff (or others)

Have there been many oil seal failures on the EFR's? 

I got one of the first batches of 7163's into Australia and since day 1 it has smoked. At the time I thought it was the valve stem seals (because I did them at the same time as installing the turbo and thought i'd stuffed one) but i just had the head reconditioned properly and and after 30-60 seconds of running the turbine housing is full of fresh clean engine oil. (see pic)

I suspected it may have been from high oil pressure (90ish psi cold) but I have installed a new OPR 40...

The other scunge is just from a first start from a block that's been sitting for a while.

I'm not sure what to do now tho

New CHRA/supercore? repair?

upgrade to bigger? (really wanted to see how far this little bloke could go)

[Full-Race Geoff]

hello Tai, in my experience your issue is not a problem with the turbocharger.  More than likely there is an issue with the oil drain.   There are 2 things i suggest to closely inspect:

-the oil drain hose.  more than likely it has a kink in it

or

-the fitting on the bottom of the turbo:  is there a fitting threaded directly into the bottom of the turbo?  or is there a 2bolt flange?

 

 

[taijohnsen]

Hi Geoff,

Thank you for the reply and suggestions.

The drain fitting on the turbo is a two bolt -10AN flange with an internal taper (see pic) and the hose is about 1 foot of 200 series speedflow with -10 AN 45's to a flange on the sump which have an ID of 1/2 inch.

[warin]

I know the 1.45 a/r would easily do it. But remember I want a responsive Turbo, I wonder how much the largest exhaust housing will cost me in response. I know a lot of people under estimate the exhaust housing, perhaps it’s not the case right now. How much do you think a 1.0 are housing is going to limit On nitrous

[Lithium]

21 hours ago, warin said:

I know the 1.45 a/r would easily do it. But remember I want a responsive Turbo, I wonder how much the largest exhaust housing will cost me in response. I know a lot of people under estimate the exhaust housing, perhaps it’s not the case right now. How much do you think a 1.0 are housing is going to limit On nitrous

Given the turbos you are coming from I doubt that the 1.45 will be a problem for you.  It's naturally going to have more lag than a 1.05, but given you are looking at running a bunch of nitrous I think it's probably necessary.   @Piggazon here has a 2.8litre with a 1.45a/r EFR8374 and that is very impressive on the road, I am sure a high compression 3litre wouldn't be worse.  

[warin]

Thanks Lithium. Do you have a dyno, so I have an idea? Or an idea on response?

[burn4005]

I would suggest that a 1.05 should work as the turbine does not need to do any additional work in this case, The nitrous is providing the extra oxidiser not the compressor. 

Which means that all of the extra exhaust energy from the additional nitrous combustion would need to be bypassed via Wastegates rather than fed through the turbine. 

60lb/min of air trough the compressor, vs 60lb/min of air plus 300hp of nitrous is still the same compressor airflow, it's just that now you have a lot of extra exhaust flow to get rid of without overspeeding the turbo. 

Just my thoughts, I don't have any experience with 400hp of nos though! 

Edited January 30, 2020 by burn4005

[Lithium]

38 minutes ago, burn4005 said:

I would suggest that a 1.05 should work as the turbine does not need to do any additional work in this case, The nitrous is providing the extra oxidiser not the ompressor. 

 

Just my thoughts, I don't have any experience with 400hp of nos though! 

In all honesty, I'm split on this - and because I am not certain one way or another I am leaning towards the side of conservative.   I've spoken with numerous other tuners and a number of them swear that EMAP goes up significantly with a turbo setup even if the turbos aren't run harder, though I've not found anyone who actually has EMAP data to quantify this theory.

One of the builds I tune actually has maxed out it's turbo setup, and we have a solid nitrous system on it and EMAP logging etc with the intention of checking where the back pressure is (we already know we've maxed the turbos out, but want to quantify what's happening).   

What we like the idea of is that instead of running it to ~40psi where from all the data I had at the time (EMAP setup have only just been installed) we might be able to dial the boost back to ~35psi where things are not fully tapped out, and then use nitrous to top it up back to the power we are at - which is a level where we are keen to cap it due to engine/trans strength.    The theory is that we MAY be able to drop EMAP significantly while making the same power for the reasons you basically are eluding to, you don't need the same drive energy as the compressors aren't providing the "air" so the gates can bypass the rest.

The frustrating thing is that we, and others I know who NOW have the hardware to confirm this just haven't had a chance yet to collect some data - and it seems that in our case, and others (as often ends up being the case) the turbo setup may just end up being upgraded to something more efficient to drop EMAP at the same level... which is a solution, but means I don't get to learn what the effect the nitrous will have. 

400hp worth of nitrous is a LOT though, and I guess one variable to consider is if the wastegate(s) will actually be able to bypass enough....

[burn4005]

on an unrelated topic, a video of an IS300 with an 9280 on a VVTi 2JZ-GTE for reference. looks like it goes pretty good. compressor sounds quite loud.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by burn4005

[Lithium]

6 minutes ago, burn4005 said:

on an unrelated topic, a video of an IS300 with an 9280 on a VVTi 2JZ-GTE for reference. looks like it goes pretty good. compressor sounds quite loud.

Ohh he finally did one with a bunch of data, I've followed him for some time but in the earlier days there were just lots of random driving vids and pics and stopped checking the updates - some pretty good data in that one!   Rolling on in 5th (with a 6speed) from 3100rpm had 20psi by around 3800rpm from what I saw which isn't amazing spool without context - but for a 105+lb/min compressor that ain't messing around!

[taijohnsen]

He gets the compressor inducers modified to make it sound like a T51r ..

[warin]

Thanks all, very good info  

I am going to go with the 8474 and the 1.05. The wastegate arrangement on my manifold is not setup for max flow (ie not inline like a compound arrangement), it’s setup for max spool. I will have to purchase an electric wastegate so I can purge based on nitrous + exhaust flow and retain the spool. 

I will log the data when I run it, but it’s going to be a while before I am ready to test 

[Full-Race Geoff]

18 hours ago, burn4005 said:

I would suggest that a 1.05 should work as the turbine does not need to do any additional work in this case, The nitrous is providing the extra oxidiser not the compressor. Which means that all of the extra exhaust energy from the additional nitrous combustion would need to be bypassed via Wastegates rather than fed through the turbine. 

exhaust manifold pressure influences cylinder pressure.  In a true competition race application, which expects to have an engine replacement after every race, smallish AR and nitrous makes sense.  If you do not intend to regularly teardown the motor, then a larger AR will reduce cylinder pressure and help extend engine service life