Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[Nosure]

On 2/1/2020 at 1:37 AM, warin said:

Thanks all, very good info  

I am going to go with the 8474 and the 1.05. The wastegate arrangement on my manifold is not setup for max flow (ie not inline like a compound arrangement), it’s setup for max spool. I will have to purchase an electric wastegate so I can purge based on nitrous + exhaust flow and retain the spool. 

I will log the data when I run it, but it’s going to be a while before I am ready to test 

Hi. I have full build 2.8 with 8474 1.45a/r. I can tell the response is not much worse than 3582 0.83a/r.  

[RB335]

Received 2 8474 front housings distributed from Full Race with poor defects.  Not sure if it's just a bad batch but from what I've seen from BW lately, things are getting worse turbo by turbo that I've purchased.  My EFR7670 was good, 9180 was OK, but these are a abject joke

First one had loose bits of aluminium rough casting inside on surge ports all ready to be sucked right into our new engines.

After they agreed to remedy, behold here is what we get, another play school housing.

Would you guys run these?
 

The replacement housing sent to remedy it :


 

Edited February 2, 2020 by RB335

[fatz]

Quality

[R32 TT]

Yeah have to say I had similar with my 8374 a few years ago and was also disappointed with little casting dags on my 8474...

They could be better finished given they are the premiere models in Borg Warner’s line up..

[Nismo 3.2ish]

When you consider that some of the motors these faulty turbos could be  bolted on cost a lot of money, they would have strict quality control 

Now the faults have been pointed out, his could come back to bite BW on the arse! 

[Full-Race Geoff]

On 1/30/2020 at 5:48 PM, Lithium said:

Rolling on in 5th (with a 6speed) from 3100rpm had 20psi by around 3800rpm from what I saw which isn't amazing spool without context - but for a 105+lb/min compressor that ain't messing around!

Hey Lith - apparently i am in the dark on him.  can you post a link to the data?  I'd be interested to check this build out

On 1/30/2020 at 6:06 PM, taijohnsen said:

He gets the compressor inducers modified to make it sound like a T51r ..

We too have experimented internally with different compressor housing inlet configurations. Even "corkscrew" style inlets to pre-whirl the air entering the compressor blades.  After realizing >zero< changes in almost every regard, we abandoned the project and scrapped or liquidated the remains. I have to wonder has anybody actually documented a tangible delta here?  Albeit shaft speed, NVH ("sound") or otherwise?  

 

On 1/27/2020 at 11:24 PM, taijohnsen said:

The drain fitting on the turbo is a two bolt -10AN flange with an internal taper (see pic) and the hose is about 1 foot of 200 series speedflow with -10 AN 45's to a flange on the sump which have an ID of 1/2 inch.

tai, all looks standard here, but it is hard to tell if the drain line could potentially have any internal restrictions (kinks) once installed.  Obviously i am on the opposite side of the planet... but this can be hard to ascertain at times.  Ive made the same error and overlooked a kink on my own personal project vehicle recently.  drove me nuts until my buddy took one glance and caught it.  

one other issue that can cause this is a high crankcase pressure scenario.  We had a well known RB drifter from NZ recently (zak, maybe you know him) who plumbed his catch can wrong and thought the turbo was bad.  Once he got crankcase pressure under control the oil bypass symptoms all resolved.  I dont intend to give you a runaround, but if the leak was on the compressor side then there may be something to look at.  Oil leak on the turbine side means something is blocking the oil from draining out of the center section

 

On 2/2/2020 at 3:42 AM, RB335 said:

Received 2 8474 front housings distributed from Full Race with poor defects..First one had loose bits of aluminium rough casting inside on surge ports all ready to be sucked right into our new engines.
The replacement housing sent to remedy it :

Hi, I can understand your frustration.  If I were in your position I would probably feel the same way.  Unequivocally, we have never seen any compressors with loose aluminum shavings inside.. yours was the first.  However most all of the BorgWarner ported shrouds exhibit some "tearing" at the thin surfaces.  Whether SXE or EFR, this superficial issue did improve for some time, and recently re-appeared.  Im sorry the replacement we sent out was not sufficiently better.  Maybe having the "t51R mod" applied would be a solution for this, rather than a performance change - an aesthetic one. I hope the no cost additional housing can help 

 

On 2/2/2020 at 5:05 AM, Lithium said:

Concerningly enough the only recent "new" EFR I've seen was at least as bad as those, and I've been told of others which at the time I took with a grain of salt at the time as the person who told me views EFRs as competition.

Really not good to see more, it seems to be a high rate of problems

Have not seen a high rate of problems, in fact EFR is proven to be fairly reliable in the world of aftermarket racing turbos.  There is one issue, and it appears to be isolated to casting quality from their aluminum foundry supplier

On 2/2/2020 at 3:43 PM, Nismo 3.2ish said:

When you consider that some of the motors these faulty turbos could be  bolted on cost a lot of money, they would have strict quality control.  Now the faults have been pointed out, his could come back to bite BW on the arse! 

its never fun to have disappointed customers and we will make sure to let BW aware.  Thanks for the feedback and discussion as always, good or bad I am genuinely grateful to have these channels of communications open.  

Edited February 3, 2020 by Full-Race Geoff

[taijohnsen]

Thank you for taking the time to reply to everyone Geoff, I will double check the oil return line for possible internal deformation etc. I have taken the opportunity to upgrade to an 8374 with the 0.92 rear on it to give the motor a bit of an easier time, but would still like to see the 7163 at its limits ?

[warin]

Casting for anything is never perfect unless they are hand finished. Most Engines have casting dags inside, most people just never see them, so they don’t worry about them.
 

however in saying that, I completely agree with the cost of these turbos they should be perfect. 

[hypergear]

On 02/02/2020 at 7:42 PM, RB335 said:

Received 2 8474 front housings distributed.....

From an engineer point of view. This is because the metal used in modern comp housing alloy forging is not hardened.  What we see is the metal melted during high speed machining process and stuck to cutters and housing, that can be touched up fair easily. In most cases there is a secondary process performed on lathe that removes all the debris, deburr sharp corners and round off thin edges, but how fine it needs to be is up to the manufacture. 

The comp housings forged during the early 90s are better quality, materials is hardened, they don't stick on tools, can be turned at moderate speed and comes out smooth after profile cutter. Modern CNC machines has much higher chunk speed, soft alloy can now be profiled to a mirror finish, so majority of castings today are no longer treated. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by hypergear

[RB335]

Hi Geoff I can't accept it.  Yes what you are doing so far is appreciated as I can see your set on sorting it out, kindly see if you can visually inspect a housing to confirm it's good before sending out, then send an a replacement through to the distributor I purchased it off as I'll be safely keeping this turbo off the engine for now.  I will not be doing a T51r mod as a band-aid you suggest to fix defects I've bought an EFR8474,  no the no-cost housing sent out is worst, basically torn coke can like in areas.

You won't get this with Garrett and their distributors never or rarely let people down if there's an issue,  even Precision are putting out nicely put together products so with the BW marketing off as top-tier you can't accept something like in the picture and video.

What Lith says isn't unheard of or a surprise


 

Edited February 4, 2020 by RB335

[warin]

Garrett are better?! Ohh please! They had core failure after core failure... their bearing system for our aftermarket turbos was made out of nylon! Only recently they have a bearing made out of metal. Why? Because BorgWarner came out with the EFR Series. All the failures the Garret had were ‘customer problems’ ha! They are a joke!
 

now let’s talk about precision. Google ‘precision failure’ you won’t stop reading for days. Then try precision in a track race environment. No chance of survival. 
 

borgwarner have directed their efforts directly at the performance/aftermarket tuners. Their core is solid and their packaging is supreme. If Casting dags stops use of their turbo for you, ok. Your call. Not for me, I’ve seen these turbos punished, inc (but not limited to) WTAC. They keep coming back for more. 
 

it’s a bit of a rant. But for me and what I’ve SEEN the EFR series is strong, dependable and their response as a turbo is second to none.

[burn4005]

this is a bandaid, but could you extrude hone the housing through the BOV port?

[Nosure]

My front housing casting was not very good as well. But I don’t think it will effect anything.  

[2pee]

Third parties still involved in these low volume turbos? How do they pronounce aluminium in Qld too, or was a US education involved?☺️

Hard to tell how deep the first defect is. When making bellmouths in the past, toolmarks were erased with a quick pass with paper, might be a bit of a trick to get between those lips! Perhaps a thin stick with some fine emery might have fixed that first housing. I'd probably worry more about abrasive grit getting past aftermarket air filters than those tiny bits though.

 

Quote

What we see is the metal melted during high speed machining process and stuck to cutters and housing, that can be touched up fair easily.

I'd think with likely flood coolant on a small production run, rather than a 1 or 2 off, and css, there's not going to be a huge amount of heat at the insert cutting this stuff.

Quote

The comp housings forged during the early 90s are better quality, materials is hardened, they don't stick on tools, can be turned at moderate speed and comes out smooth after profile cutter. Modern CNC machines has much higher chunk speed, soft alloy can now be profiled to a mirror finish, so majority of castings today are no longer treated.

I see all the multiple drilled and tapped holes on the BW housings, doesn't strike me as a good idea to use non heat treated material, even if it does save a few cents. The B1 frame ones I've glanced at, do seem to have that fine grain usually associated with hardening of 356, although sometimes the deeper you go into a casting or even wrought bar, the gummy bits appear.

Edited February 6, 2020 by 2pee

[RB335]

Nosure your housing looks much better and could I say, passable.  It still has that same messiness on the bottom of the housing, where mine had loose bits of aluminium floating around.

I might add, regardless of whichever way any views would try to see around the defects, it's not a matter of whether it effects performance or not.  Ask yourself from what you see, would a housing like that be of acceptable or unacceptable quality.  Would you be OK continuing to buy into a product where standards are beginning to slip?

Edited February 13, 2020 by RB335

[warin]

Are they slipping? Or is it a select few out of thousands of units? 

[burn4005]

this is just my 3-monthly thread bump to give all those EFR8474 builds in the works a hurry up.

Edited February 25, 2020 by burn4005

[Shoota_77]

Just now, burn4005 said:

this is just my 3-monthly thread bump to give all those EFR8474 builds in the works a hurry up.

I honestly cbf with mine at this moment... 

[R32 TT]

If nothing gets in my way (and plenty is trying to) I should have a result this weekend.

[Full-Race Geoff]

Built b series drag race Honda, full race top mount kit.  only turbo changed- no other changes.  

Green line = 9180 1.05 a/r
Red & blue = 8474 1.45 a/r

Edited February 26, 2020 by Full-Race Geoff