Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[acsplit]

Well I picked up a 7670 .92 T4 internal gate for a reasonable price off an Evo owner.

Going to fit it to my rb25det which has gtr rods and forged Pistons with stock manifold and an adaptor plate.

Let's see how it goes...

I did ask artec if they did a t4 low mount manifold but nothing yet.

[Predator1]

On 07/05/2019 at 11:36 PM, Full-Race Geoff said:

the 9180 with 1.05 a/r really should not be out of breath by 5000 rpm on a 3.2L engine.  I suggest to perform a boost leak test, exhaust leak test and also take a good look at the wastegate setup for leakage and inspect the exhaust system for restrictions such as collapsed muffler or failed flex section.  Very likely something is going on, A turbo speed sensor is a good idea also becuase it will make troubleshooting much easier.  high turbo speed = boost leak.  low turbo speed = exhaust or wg leak

 

Same boat. Only made 540awkw on 23~psi. Couldn't get anymore boost, IAT's shot up. Turbine speed was 102k, with around 28psi emap. Tuned to 11.8 up top.

Did boost leak, spanner checked hot side. Running 4inch exhaust with just 1 muffler.. 60mm gate. f**kn turbo didnt make what I expected. 

[burn4005]

what were you expecting? the Turbo was pushing 85lb/min at about 60% compressor efficiency at that operating point and you made 720hp after drivetrain losses?

28psi isn't that much Emap though, I thought you'd be able to drive it harder even though it was pretending to be a heat gun by that point. what wastegate spring were you using and how were the pneumatics plumbed?

but really, if you were after much more power than that you picked the wrong turbo.

 

my test procedure for cars doing this is connect the boost line straight to the top port of the actuator, make sure my boost cut is set properly and go do gentle roll-ons down the highway (I mean on the dyno)

Edited August 3, 2023 by burn4005

[RB335]

Doesn't the 9180 make it's max flow at 116k RPM wheel speed?   I see most people here ended up not running the 9180 turbo this fast?    I made similar power on a 9180 with a 1.05 as others on a reasonable reading dyno maybe the rear housing needs to go bigger

Edited September 8, 2023 by RB335

[Lithium]

On 09/09/2023 at 2:32 AM, RB335 said:

Doesn't the 9180 make it's max flow at 116k RPM wheel speed?   I see most people here ended up not running the 9180 turbo this fast?    I made similar power on a 9180 with a 1.05 as others on a reasonable reading dyno maybe the rear housing needs to go bigger

Nope, 116kRPM is the "beyond this we make no promises about how long the turbo will last here - good luck" point.   

The red line I've drawn is more the "the turbo is probably able to push a bit more air than this but it ain't gonna be pretty" marker, beyond that pre-intercooler IATs are going to skyrocket and exhaust manifold back pressure is also going to take off as the gate is going to have to shut to try and squeeze more out of the compressor.  That funnily enough causes back pressure to go up a lot as the drive pressure isn't being diverted past the turbine.  IMHO people have often underestimated how much hotsides on Borg turbos flow because of mismatched compressors hitting this kind of situation.  Really its not more turbine that's needed, it's more (or a better) compressor.  

I've put a cute orange star roughly where @Predator1 sounds to be sitting

Edited September 10, 2023 by Lithium

[GTSBoy]

^^ I feel like this conversation has been had in the recent past with a different turbo in exactly the same place on the map, also on a bigger RB (3 or 3.2L).

[Lithium]

28 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

^^ I feel like this conversation has been had in the recent past with a different turbo in exactly the same place on the map, also on a bigger RB (3 or 3.2L).

Yeah.  When I saw RB335's comment I had a "I'm SURE we've been through this before and I actually thought it was in this thread" moment.  I'm also not talking sh1t when I say some of what I said above, I've actually effectively "put my money where my mouth is" (and convinced other people to make similar educated gambles off the back of it) and convinced people to upgrade compressors while using the same turbine after being told that the hotside is a restriction and suddenly EMAP has dropped and making more power has got a lot easier.

What does my head in is that Borg seem to often have the Airwerks range of turbos "a step ahead" of the EFRs in terms of nice compressors - they may not necessarily flow heaps more for the size, if at all, but their maps often suit things like RBs and JZs a lot better than their EFR counterparts.   Its like the EFRs are more aimed at 4cylinders, and SX are "for bigger engines".   If a 68mm 9180 is not big enough for a RB32 your only choice is a 74mm EFR9280 which fixes the problem but definitely comes at cost in terms of spool *and* you really need to go the 1.45a/r hotside to make the most of it whereas the latest generation Airwerks compressor looks like a thing that would basically be what a lot of RB people who went for 9180s were looking for but didn't get because of their anaemic performance at lower boost levels (and not realising that looking at the compressor maps).

Behold the S368SX-R compressor map, same inducer, smaller exducer, is able to flow similar to the bigger EFR9180 compressor at the same rpm so you don't actually have to spin it any faster despite the smaller size:

So the red line is where an EFR9180 compressor starts being more useful as a hot air pump, and the orange line (more for interest sake) is where the turbine rpm speed reaches the maximum listed for an EFR9180 if you are at all nervous about the idea of spinning the 80mm turbine faster than the EFR9180 was mapped to.     If Borg combined these two I can't see how you'd not end up with what the EFR9180 "should've been" for the bigger engine guys, it'd actually be more responsive than the 9180 and more likely to give the power levels you'd have expected if you spun it closer to that 116krpm zone (the S368SX-R is actually mapped out to 126,000rpm but I feel like it's wise to keep the 80mm turbine not being spun any faster than Borg ever advertised for it). 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Lithium

[The Mafia]

Hi Gents. I have some data for the EFR8474. 

Engine: RB26 2.8L Stroker
Compression: 9.8:1, 0.8mm gasket, custom CP pistons
Head: Medium to significantly ported, 1mm oversized valves
Cams: HKS Vcam 264 intake 9.x mm lift, Kelford 272 exhaust 10.2mm lift)
Turbo: Borg Warner EFR Black 8474, 1.01 rear housing split pulse
Manifold: 6boost, Turbosmart ProGate
Exhaust: 3.5inch all the way (had 4psi back pressure - 4 inch one day) 
Gearbox: Holinger 6 Speed sequential (dyno'd in 5th, 1:1 ratio)
ECU: Emtron KV8 
Dyno: DynoDymanics AWD reading about 40hp too low (compared back to back with 2 other dynos) 
Sensors: Almost all of them

It is starting to Emap itself. There is this tingle you get as a tuner (more so, a whole bunch of variables and behaviour) when the exhaust manifold pressure is too high. As soon as the gaskets are getting services again, I'm going to fit an emap sensor port to the manifold. This allows the Emtron to completely calculate fuel model. What they can do is absolutely awesome regarding this. Once I have generated an emap estimate table, I can disconnect it. Or install a tap so I can "turn it off". They don't like being connected permanently, they fail.

Regarding the power output - As a tuner with almost 20 years experience I can honestly say the Emtron is pretty much spot on with the power output readings when you set the frictional loss table correctly. Very happy with the way this ECU calculates power like this.

Not sure if anyone noticed, but RB water pumps suck. (two meanings there). I need to modify the radiator outlet, or make a custom rad. On the circuit, both water and oil temps are pinned to 82~degrees though. I have a MASSIVE oil cooler. Oil coolers make all the difference on the RB engines. 

Also, this setup seems pretty good but is very agressive coming onto boost. Being a circuit car, I am considering switching to the 1.45AR rear housing to make the power more transient, to stop it emapping itself, and to be more gentle on the hotside to reduce wear and provide longevity. The housings are quite pricey though. See how I go.

Happy to answer any questions or extract any other data (within reason) that you might be interested in. 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by The Mafia

[StubbyFoil]

The Mafia, this is awesome information! Is the boost number relative or absolute pressure? Also, are you only reving the engine to 7,300 rpm? Any reason?

An EMAP sensor would be neat to look at! I am currently building an R33 GTR with almost the exact same setup, Nitto 2.8, GSC 268/270 cams, mild port head etc. My dream turbo was the EFR 8474 Black, but they are nearly impossible to come by, so I went with Precision 6870 T4 1.0 A/R on a Full-Race divided manifold. I'm hoping for about 800whp on E85 at around the 30psi mark. I will be running most of the same sensors, including EMAP on the dyno, so it should be fun to compare! 

Also, you mention 4psi exhaust backpressure. You are making me regret choosing 3.5" titanium exhaust. Do you think a 4" downpipe with a 3.5" exhaust would help? Or maybe a cutout? Thanks for all the great info! 

[Full-Race Geoff]

On 9/10/2023 at 5:00 PM, The Mafia said:

Being a circuit car, I am considering switching to the 1.45AR rear housing to make the power more transient, to stop it emapping itself, and to be more gentle on the hotside to reduce wear and provide longevity

for what it's worth Scott K @ Emtron loves the 1.45 a/r - we supply him EFR turbos and almost always with 1.45 hotside

On 9/13/2023 at 6:54 AM, StubbyFoil said:

I am currently building an R33 GTR with almost the exact same setup, Nitto 2.8, GSC 268/270 cams, mild port head etc. My dream turbo was the EFR 8474 Black, but they are nearly impossible to come by

Full Race has 9274 and 8374 in stock now if you're looking for something.  the 6870 is a higher-inertia turbocharger (drag race oriented)

On 9/13/2023 at 6:54 AM, StubbyFoil said:

Do you think a 4" downpipe with a 3.5" exhaust would help?

in my experience a 4" downpipe with 3.5" exhaust is an excellent compromise.  often times the larger diameter downpipe gets the job done and the smaller diameter exhaust keeps your eardrums intact

 

On 9/10/2023 at 3:31 PM, Lithium said:

If a 68mm 9180 is not big enough for a RB32 your only choice is a 74mm EFR9280 which fixes the problem but definitely comes at cost in terms of spool *and* you really need to go the 1.45a/r hotside to make the most of it

worth noting the 9280 compressor actually has less inertia than the 9180 compressor.  Scotty K @ emtron shared some logs with me that indicate virtually no loss of spool between the two.  Although BW has not produced 9280 or 9180 in the last 2 years so it may be a bit more time until that changes.  

[StubbyFoil]

Thanks for the reply Geoff! I am running a PPG sequential, and I got a really good deal on the 6870, so I figured I would try this turbo and see how I like it. I figure once spooled, the transmission should really help keep me in the sweet spot of the turbo. If I feel like I'm not happy with transient, then I will definitely look at an EFR, which is what I originally had my heart set on anyways. Any ETA's on the 8474? Or would you recommend the 9274 for around 800whp 2.8l?

Also, I'm thinking about just doing a 3.5" downpipe and exhaust, but running either a boost activated loud valve or just an electronic cutout. Maybe I will try this same concept but with 4" downpipe, and have the cutout in the 4" section. Either way, the cylinder head is finished, and the long block is almost done at the machine shop. I will be sure to post results with the data I've collected from dyno. Thanks again for all the info!

[Piggaz]

Why not get some QUALITY and BIG mufflers and run a 4 inch? 
Less complexity, less things to fail and have a better result all round.

[Butters]

On 9/16/2023 at 1:12 PM, Piggaz said:

Why not get some QUALITY and BIG mufflers and run a 4 inch? 
Less complexity, less things to fail and have a better result all round.

Any links to sample 4 inch mufflers that people have had success with ?

[welshy_32ZILA]

20 minutes ago, Butters said:

Any links to sample 4 inch mufflers that people have had success with ?

I run 2x 4" Magnaflows. They're pretty good straight through aswell. 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

27 minutes ago, Butters said:

Any links to sample 4 inch mufflers that people have had success with ?

SP Mufflers (they bought all the tooling and IP off SMB).

[StubbyFoil]

I guess my main thing is I've always wanted a Tomei titanium exhaust (I'm a RICER, I know). I finally bought a Tomei ExpremeTi exhaust last Black Friday, so I've committed to 3.5". I haven't bought the materials to make the downpipe yet, waiting on my engine back from machine shop. I'm trying to figure out the best route to go as far as downpipe back to the Tomei. I could always sell the Tomei, and build a custom exhaust, but bolting on a quick titanium system is much quicker than building/TIG'ing a custom setup. Plus I want to live out my childhood (RICER) fantasy! haha I will check out SP mufflers! Thanks for the insight!

 

Is there any ETA when these other turbochargers will be available? It seems that they are trickling back into the market, but most shops have 6 month or longer wait times. 

[Full-Race Geoff]

23 hours ago, StubbyFoil said:

Is there any ETA when these other turbochargers will be available? It seems that they are trickling back into the market, but most shops have 6 month or longer wait times. 

Which turbocharger exactly?  Full Race has a very small supply of 8374 and 9274.  *8474 arriving this week, not sure if theyre already reserved or available

 

On 9/15/2023 at 12:58 PM, StubbyFoil said:

Any ETA's on the 8474? Or would you recommend the 9274 for around 800whp 2.8l?  Also, I'm thinking about just doing a 3.5" downpipe and exhaust, but running either a boost activated loud valve or just an electronic cutout. Maybe I will try this same concept but with 4" downpipe, and have the cutout in the 4" section. Either way, the cylinder head is finished, and the long block is almost done at the machine shop. I will be sure to post results with the data I've collected from dyno. Thanks again for all the info!

8474 and 9274 are back in small batch production right now.  the 9274 moves a little more air, the 8474 spools a little earlier.  800whp 2.8L match will largely depend on max engine speed, fuel used and elevation.  turbine housing should be selected based on the boost target.  they will fit the same downpipe.

note - the 6870 downpipe will not fit the EFR turbos; precision outlet vbands are in a different location from garrett and BW

[CowsWithGuns]

Hi guys, hoping I could get an idiot check.

I'm running an R34 with a stock manifold, Hypergear ATR45. I find it quite unresponsive for a daily driven street car - no surprise given it's based off a GT3582 .62. I want to shift the power curve as far to the left as I can, whilst maintaining peak ~300wkw on 98.

Looks like the best way to achieve this goal is to get an EFR7163 (or 7670 not sure yet) T4 TS IWG. I couldn't find an off the shelf IWG T4 split manifold but I imagine that is zero drama for 6boost or sinco to make. If that's silly and I have to get twin EWGs, then I'll scrap the EFR TS plan to save cost (and probably just go the pulsar).

The original plan was to get a Pulsar G30-660 or even a G25-660 on a vband with EWG and save some bucks (and have the perks of EWG) but I'm nervous that the pulsar turbos might underperform a real Garrett. Also it looks like the EFR spool faster and at lower RPMS, especially if twin scrolled. If I was to spend the money on a real Garrett G30 then it makes sense to me to bite the bullet for the EFR.

I assume I'm on the right path here but would welcome a smack of wisdom (or a blessing) from ye with experience.

[GTSBoy]

My inexperienced, never been there, only-just-bought-a-hypergear-highflow-this-month view on the world is that the 7163 is the perfect turbo for a 25Neo, for street duties at that sort of power level.

The whole twin scroll and wastegating thing is.... something to agonise over, I admit.

[Kinkstaah]

If you want to do it right, you have to do it right.

I had a 7670 on my 2.8, with the 1.05 rear and T4 TS, EWG. My housemate had the 7163 on a SR20 0.85 rear, also T4 TS, IWG (with a fullrace kit)

We both had results that had other people scratching their heads saying "omg wtf how so good wtf???" My housemate had issues keeping boost up top on his 2L, and he was using E85 as well to push it as far as he could up top. In other words, he needed a EWG to make the most of his setup, even though it made 335kw on E85.

I do not think you will get 300kw out of one in a RB with a IWG on a 7163 on 98. (It is the same size as a GT/GTX3076r.) It will be awesome through the midrange though. You will get better results if you can get a decent manifold and EWG. Keep in mind if you go 6boost you will need to move/relocate/modify your aircon line in a R34, lest it explode on track....

The 7163 could potentially even be low mounted, you could run the T25 undivided on a stock manifold (or use an adapter?), you could run IWG to save physical space, but all of these will hurt you up top. It may be worth doing this, you could save coin if it all fits. It may give you the result you are after anyway and be simpler and easier. And simpler and easier has value in and of itself. You may find that being 'restricted' to 98, that trying to run the level of boost E85 users run into and have restrictions at is not applicable to your setup. You may find that running 19 psi on 98 through an IWG7163 is simple stuff. It just might make 287kw or something like that.

If the car is a daily driven road car as you've said, this will be as good a setup as you can really get. The difference in on/off/part throttle compared to a GT, GTX, G Series, or Hypergear is night and day. You will understand this before you drive 20 meters down the street.

The calling card of HG is that they do not need much if any fabrication to fit. The BW EFR will need it. It's a weird shape relative to everything else, so expect a new dump pipe, new intake, and all new lines with their complications at a minimum, and maybe a new manifold, Aircon lines etc.