Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[welshy_32ZILA]

12 hours ago, Lithium said:

Quite interesting looking at it all there, his target lambda is arguably on the rich side - and he's ~5% rich of that target (ie, it's running 10.7:1 "gas scale" AFR).  It could be that rich of target due to the fact he is running at part throttle at that long point, but at face value if he was running your lambda at the same MAP he'd be <70% duty at this point which isn't so bad.   

Also, those Bosch injectors are "1650cc @ 4bar" while the target differential pressure appears to be 3.2bar, and it's around 3.1bar at that time spot.   One way or another, there should be room for AT LEAST 10% more power with that fuel system which isn't all bad

 

 

10% more power isn't going to be enough imo lith.

I spoke to my tuner about it being a touch richer then most.  He said that's where he runs them. I trust him and try not to question, more just understand. 1000 ways to skin a cat. 

I'll order some Bosch 2200/ID2000s and fit them before it goes back. Id prefer to not be maxed at injectors and keep everything happy. 

 

Burn, 125k rpm shaft speed. I like it. I'm still new to reading data so I may have a question once I get a chance to have a good look at your ss. 

[RICE RACING]

It's a little known art form (internet age) to run more excess fuel and correct spark advance. Some tuna's get too carried away with BS abstract on line learning crap advice to target set fuel amounts, there is no such thing honestly.

Knock limits and thermal capacity or tolerance (pistons rings, valve seats, seals etc) is what is key, your blokes advice is sound, stick with it. All the best cars are set that way

Lost count how many tests I have done in real world showing arbitrary 'Lambda targets' then doing the same with what the engine wants and always the performance is better, EGT is lower, knock is always less... fuel economy is down but no one I know gives a f7ck about that :) Some are spark limited and in those applications the motor tunes you, and that is never a good thing lol.... Get proper spark (Inductive is NOT proper !) and see the light.

[Lithium]

11 hours ago, RICE RACING said:

It's a little known art form (internet age) to run more excess fuel and correct spark advance. Some tuna's get too carried away with BS abstract on line learning crap advice to target set fuel amounts, there is no such thing honestly.

Agreed, and I don't want my post to be taken out of context.   

I was simply pointing out it the target was on the fatter side (which as you say, may be perfectly right - it's literally why I said arguably as everyone have their own approaches and views even if they tuned the same engine), and the fact that it was a bit rich of target - even if ~3% is SFA.   When you factor that in along with the fact that while he is running ~3.2psid the Bosch 1650cc injectors are actually rated to their advertised 1650cc/min at 4bar psid  (compared to ID1700+ which flow ~2000cc/min at 4bar) and the fact he has a good few % of duty cycle to play with still means even with the same target mixture there is possibly a bit of moving room depending on how they want to approach it.

Make sense?  

12 hours ago, welshy_32ZILA said:

10% more power isn't going to be enough imo lith.

I spoke to my tuner about it being a touch richer then most.  He said that's where he runs them. I trust him and try not to question, more just understand. 1000 ways to skin a cat. 

I'll order some Bosch 2200/ID2000s and fit them before it goes back. Id prefer to not be maxed at injectors and keep everything happy. 

 

Fwiw I wasn't questioning his choice here, I definitely didn't mean to make it seem that way - I was just listing variables which added up to the fact that the thing may have a bit of headroom and I am sure he would be good to talk to about that to work out what a good way forward would be.   Some people have doubts about the Bosch 2000+cc injectors and ethanol use, so do your homework/talk to your tuner if you haven't already to make sure you're happy with where you go Surprises with fuel systems aren't fun.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Lithium

[RICE RACING]

Agreed with you Lith, you need the extra capacity. Say for example you have a fuel pressure problem (been hit with a litany of these last fortnight!) what then can happen is a back ground calc will take over (dep on ECU type? code?) and manually and much more quickly than relying on a feedback loop from a Lambda sensor OR covers situations where those are/cant be relied upon say on action of limiters be that tr or traction or some other ...... you then NEED to have this margin, if you injectors are maxed out or even not enough extra capacity built in you wont be able to control what happens inside your engine, despite your paper/internet page 'engine protections' lol :)

Pressure (fluid) sensors act very fast much faster than a feedback through any exhaust gas measurement, just a tip for young players.

[RICE RACING]

1 hour ago, Lithium said:

  Surprises with fuel systems aren't fun.

Like running 4bar then seeing 1.7bar in the fuel rail, will your motor still be running? :) It can and does happen what is good/great these days is with the right systems + design + execution you no longer need to "take the engine out" when it finally catches up with you

[Lithium]

21 minutes ago, RICE RACING said:

Like running 4bar then seeing 1.7bar in the fuel rail, will your motor still be running? It can and does happen what is good/great these days is with the right systems + design + execution you no longer need to "take the engine out" when it finally catches up with you

The only engines I've tuned which have been hurt have been hurt by things which anything the ECU sees or controls would not have been able to do anything to warn for or protect against, and plenty have had fuel pressure issues - among other things.  It is amusing how often people get frustrated at what your protection strategies have done... until the topic of what would have happened if their hard lap wasn't disrupted by a big reduction in power/rev range.  IE, the same kind of disruption to their session but more things to fix.

Edit: Just remembered you seem to assume the worst when other people are involved... I'm not quite up to making a tune which will protect against valvetrain failures.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Lithium

[RICE RACING]

I think the issue is these companies who make those offerings in the majority DO NOT race at professional levels....... thus the strategies are lacking, let alone the kunts who set them up its comical listening/reading to some of the total crap on GagTube/Arsebook honestly.

[welshy_32ZILA]

8 hours ago, Lithium said:

Agreed, and I don't want my post to be taken out of context.   

I was simply pointing out it the target was on the fatter side (which as you say, may be perfectly right - it's literally why I said arguably as everyone have their own approaches and views even if they tuned the same engine), and the fact that it was a bit rich of target - even if ~3% is SFA.   When you factor that in along with the fact that while he is running ~3.2psid the Bosch 1650cc injectors are actually rated to their advertised 1650cc/min at 4bar psid  (compared to ID1700+ which flow ~2000cc/min at 4bar) and the fact he has a good few % of duty cycle to play with still means even with the same target mixture there is possibly a bit of moving room depending on how they want to approach it.

Make sense?  

Fwiw I wasn't questioning his choice here, I definitely didn't mean to make it seem that way - I was just listing variables which added up to the fact that the thing may have a bit of headroom and I am sure he would be good to talk to about that to work out what a good way forward would be.   Some people have doubts about the Bosch 2000+cc injectors and ethanol use, so do your homework/talk to your tuner if you haven't already to make sure you're happy with where you go Surprises with fuel systems aren't fun.

No probs lith, nothing taken to heart here, you were on the money,  the other reason why it was a touch fatter which I had forgotten until digging into inj was that the injectors had 8/9% variance. 

 

Just a couple of pretty switch on ppl and and  a gumby (me) discussing things. 

 

That's interesting about the BM 1650 compared to the ID 1700. Will definitely be doing a bit more research about the injectors but after reading a bit more I'm leaning towards the Ids2000s but I may need to rob a bank to pay for them ? If you guys hear of any banks being robbed ot wasnt me ok ?. 

[Mick_o]

On 4/2/2019 at 6:14 PM, welshy_32ZILA said:

No probs lith, nothing taken to heart here, you were on the money,  the other reason why it was a touch fatter which I had forgotten until digging into inj was that the injectors had 8/9% variance. 

 

Just a couple of pretty switch on ppl and and  a gumby (me) discussing things. 

 

That's interesting about the BM 1650 compared to the ID 1700. Will definitely be doing a bit more research about the injectors but after reading a bit more I'm leaning towards the Ids2000s but I may need to rob a bank to pay for them ? If you guys hear of any banks being robbed ot wasnt me ok ?. 

DO NOT USE ID2000's!!!!!! 

[Steve85]

@Mick_o what's the go with ID2000s?
Asking for a friend... *(cough).

[acsplit]

They are an older style gas injector and eventually fail when on an ethanol car

[fatz]

Yup thrown 2 sets in the bin

 

first got warrenttteeyyyyyy

[acsplit]

But most early E85 cars run them.

[fatz]

Fine if you don’t let them sit for more than 2 months

so no good in most gtrs

[Steve85]

They are an older style gas injector and eventually fail when on an ethanol car

Oh boy. That's not brilliant. Next your going to tell me they fail catastrophically and the car pretends it's a Ferarri?

Time to start learning all about injectors I think. [emoji848]
I don't have these problems with the wife's car. [emoji23]

[acsplit]

No no learning needed, just ask Chris.

[Steve85]

No no learning needed, just ask Chris.

I like to at least learn the basics... but yes, I'll end up doing what he says. [emoji23]

[acsplit]

Yeah its just an "upgrade" to plan for.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

They're CNG injectors, made for CNG.

Buy 1550cc Bosch injectors (often falsely advertised as 1650cc) and run them at 4bar base pressure if you need the flow.

[RICE RACING]

So much pain on E85 ?