Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

[burn4005]

Lol

Use decent fuel pumps with VP M2 to keep them lubricated if they're gear, georotor or screw types. 

Use stainless injectors and appropriate fuel hose. 

DO everything else the same as petrol and sleep soundly without worrying about a water injection system failing and blowing the engine. 

 

[RICE RACING]

50 minutes ago, burn4005 said:

Lol

Use decent fuel pumps with VP M2 to keep them lubricated if they're gear, georotor or screw types. 

Use stainless injectors and appropriate fuel hose. 

DO everything else the same as petrol and sleep soundly without worrying about a water injection system failing and blowing the engine. 

 

LOL^^^

Never ever had any WI system cause an engine failure.

E85 (system failures) on the other hand :) got a spare few hours to list them all, I know I don't hahaha. Similar to what you are saying though in a way, do it properly and its never ever going to be an issue, you will always have something else failing in the fuel system before WI ever will in my experience.

E85 is max homo in any system set up if you leave it long term, compare that to WM50 that sits for over 10 years and you dont have any such 'prolonged storage' nightmares as is common place with E85 'cars'.

Should not really be called cars honestly as they spend more time in workshops and on tow trucks getting the shit 'engineered properly' :P and there is always an excuse for why the E85 shit itself.. 'do this right do that right blah blah' only thing they can say about WI systems is it 'might fail' good luck to you :) we dont need RACV or NRMA on speed dial or need to throw fuel injectors, pumps, fuel bladders, tanks, carburetor bowls or jets etc in the bin let alone spend time cleaning them out from gum formation that E85 is known to do.

I know cause I have lots of customers who still insist on using the shit ! Compare them the the WM50 and petrol cars and you know what they say you can lead a horse to water but if the kunt wont drink then shoot it cause its not worth the trouble.

[RICE RACING]

Pulled down one E85 carb a little while back that had more crystal growth in it than a meth lab in Bankstown

[fatz]

2 hours ago, burn4005 said:

Lol

Use decent fuel pumps with VP M2 to keep them lubricated if they're gear, georotor or screw types. 

Use stainless injectors and appropriate fuel hose. 

DO everything else the same as petrol and sleep soundly without worrying about a water injection system failing and blowing the engine. 

 

I assume your drunk

 

yea did all that and guess what still f**ked

[RICE RACING]

I look after one race car, money no object deal, same story.

Stainless this that pumps injectors you name it and still mega homo maintenance nightmare it is in reality. Only thing that saved the shit show is the Life Racing computer and someone on the key board lol....... but still its a kunt needing to waste time and money with E85 garbage when petrol and water does better, with none of the proven 'failures' ironically that the ethanol sniffers shit on about against cars that work 100% of the time, go figure ! :)

 

[RB335]

So I never knew that the 9180 has an Alluminium CHRA option.  I ordered mine from Hi-Octane website and the option wasn't on there, so I assume I got the cheaper steel CHRA.

Do any rotating parts, e.g the backing plates where the wheels go get changed to alluminium or is it simply the bearing housing?


Run in on my 2.8 with 9180 is done, now time to max it out and see how it drives.

My future plan is twin 7163's on Hypex manifolds, all seems to be pretty promising but the new 9274 looks very promising that might be an upgrade in terms of response from the 9180

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by RB335

[burn4005]

 

 

Mines been running for two years on e85, 400kw for one year 500kw for another. Microglass type Fuel filter gets a clean every now and again but that's it. Vp M2 in every tank.

 

I check the log every now and again, fuel pressure is fine and egts are consistent accross all 6 cyl, no knock. Kv8 has every protection function active plus some extra.

 

It gets a tank of 98 every now and again if I'm going for a long drive, maybe that helps

 

 

 

 

 

[Lithium]

On 4/2/2019 at 8:14 PM, welshy_32ZILA said:

I'm leaning towards the Ids2000s but I may need to rob a bank to pay for them ? If you guys hear of any banks being robbed ot wasnt me ok ?. 

 

17 hours ago, Mick_o said:

DO NOT USE ID2000's!!!!!! 

OK, I've just read through a bunch of comments which flowed on from here which I agree and disagree with to a varying degree but as usual there is a little mis- or half-information that I don't feel like anyone considering them are getting enough to make an reasonably informed decision and for a change I actually have time on my side today, so I'll answer with more than just the easy "I agree with Micko". 

Like always, this is just my view point - I don't profess to know f**k all and know there are people who do or will imply that I don't, so take that as you will but I think it's worth at least using things people say to base your own research before deciding whether it's bullshit or not.  ESPECIALLY when it comes to injectors, as they literally supply the fuel for your combustion - debating turbos is one thing, making a decision which could cost you a very expensive engine is a different thing altogether.

There are a lot of different things in this topic so I'll try and put some light on the things that usually are or should be on peoples minds about them.  This whole post is SPECIFICALLY about "Bosch 2200cc" / ID2000 injectors.

So I'll focus on these things for the two major areas people talk about these, firstly the relatively academic/harmless area people debate about these injectors and then will ramble about the bigger issues.

ID2000s vs Bosch 2200cc injectors

Straight up, they are the same hardware.  Injector Dynamics themselves do not hide that fact, and put a lot of work into matching them so strictly speaking they are "better" than just going with generic Bosch 2200cc brands.  Check out the link here: http://injectordynamics.com/articles/does-dynamic-matching-really-matter/

There is likely to be less pain tuning ID2000s than generic Bosch 2200cc injectors, but that is missing the point... there is likely to be problems at some point, the question isn't so much if - but how bad, exactly how bad will be under a different heading.

So yeah, that Injector dynamics page IS accurate but it's kind of glossed over things and made out like their injectors will fix drivability issues and the flow as tested has a very small range of error at higher pulse widths - which is kinda true, however they have only plotted down to 2ms total pulse width.  Below is a scatter plot showing rpm vs actual pulse width from a car using these injectors on BP98,   I've set any load points plotted which are under atmospheric to show as green - as it comes into the transition to boost area it will go through from orange to red.   Notice how much of the driving around this car does exists BELOW the 2ms range plotted by ID in their graph?  (note, the flat line around 1ms is due to the affect of a combination of short pulse adder and dead time settings).

These injectors have quite short dead times relative to the flow that they have, and as the linked article suggests - not every injector is made equal.   A significant thing about this is that the dead times between any two injectors can vary by a small amount, if that amount is still significant compared to the average (or the configured....) dead time and you have injectors which flow a heap of fuel for a small amount of open time then the amount of variation in flow between each injector can be very significant.   Because of this fact, as the pulse width gets shorter the potential for deviation in relative flow between each injector increases significantly - the unmatched ones going exponentially different by 2ms, and the ID2000s even are starting to show the trend.   It'd be very interesting to see what would have happened if that chart was shown down to 2ms, it is a shame that they didn't show results closer to the 1ms mark - my logging essentially shows that basically all typical driving on pump gas will be done below the pulsewidths that they will be operating with.

Those variations in flow DO matter if you give a shit about drivability, it is the kind of thing that causes shitty starts, hesitations at transient throttle, less than ideal idle quality and such forth.   They can be glossed over by tuning them to run richer mixtures, but still bear in mind that this is a band aid - and one that's not lovely.  The variation in flow between cylinders in different situations is still going to be there, it's just been masked.   This may not bother everyone, and will obviously be less of an issue with E85 where you immediately add >30% to your pulse widths for a given amount of airflow - but then this is the most trivial concern with using these injectors, so I'll move on to the bigger concerns.

These injectors are CNG injectors

The implications of this seem to be mostly poorly understood or communicated.  I'm not going to profess to know heaps about it to be honest, I am not an injector engineer and don't know a lot about how they work *but* this whole tuning lark is like that.   Everyone knows some of the picture,  doubt the f**k out of anyone who is 100% confident on everything they are talking about.  I do feel there are some basic points which aren't questioned or discussed and they are pretty meaningful here.  Hear me out...

When the "CNG injectors" thing comes up, it is usually when discussing E85 use.  That is kind of true, they are not designed to use E85.   People talk about them being "OK" if they use stainless internals.... welllll..... that is only part of the picture and that certainly doesn't make them safer.   

It is true, they aren't designed to use on E85 - but that's more to do with the fact that E85 is a fluid and they are NOT DESIGNED TO WORK WITH FLUIDS.   Any fluid.   Here is something from the horses mouth:

So what does this mean?   I can't say exactly what the behaviour inside is, how long it takes, how likely it is to happen etc but I have had the misfortune of having to deal with cars running these injectors and I am finicky enough to analyse the shit out of everything and identify things that are not working the way they should be and try and work out what or how the problem is occuring.   A lot of people don't run into issues, from what I've seen they are either lucky or just are not paying enough attention to realise what is going on.  Likely a bit of both.

What I do know is that these injectors can change how much they flow over time when used with fluids.  That can be a mixture between immediate, and longer term.  There are PLENTY of cases where people have run into tuning issues or even engine failures and returned them to a supplier who has tested them and found that where they previously were ~2200cc/min at 3bar they are now <2000cc min with possibly a greater margain of error between the injectors.   That has been previously deemed not enough to cause the issues seen, they've been given some love and back to their previous flow level and everyone has been happy.  At least temporarily.

This is where things get scarier though, their flow behaviour can change on a much more minor time scale.  Like in the period of half an hour, with no tune changes, the same IAT/ECT and basically all typical variables within a range where you would expect a minimum variance in flow.   I'm talking well over 10% in flow, with a significant error between each injector.   It seems like it can be associated with fuel temperature, and likely is - however this is not a consistent error...  corrected volumetric to mass flow calculations which take into account fuel temperature will not fix this, as it isn't about the density of the fuel changing.  It's about how the actual injectors are delivering the fuel, essentially delivering an inconsistent fuel volume for the same pulse width at different times.   

It is not a huge leap to make to assume that this can be attributed to the whole "swelling behaviour of elastomer seal in liquid media" thing - which is not a one way street with this kind of material.  Basically they can swell and contract depending on temperature and exposure to fluids, the elastomer seal is designed to stop a gas from seeping past the injector when the injector is not meant to be allowing fuel through - and the upshot of this is there is a thing which is not intended to be used in a way which can cause it to swell and contract means that the rate which it does it is not consistent in any way.   They are meant to be dry.    

The upshot of this is that when you hear about these cases where a car has had a lean out on these injectors and hurt an engine, the injectors have blamed for being "blocked" due to E85.... that absolutely can be the case, but every now and then you hear about the injectors being tested and they've turned out fine and things get messier - this is where the horror starts.   You don't need E85 to cause this issue.  You don't need foreign contaminants.   The injectors can return back (more or less) to the flow behaviour they had before and not give any hint that one or many of the injectors at one point during operation may have dropped to  <2000cc/min of flow on a car tuned assuming 2200cc/min flow potential.  A cylinder which was happy running 30psi on E85 at 11.5:1 (petrol scale because most people seem to talk in that even on E85) may not be so stoked with running 13.0:1.   The same car can richen up or lean out further depending on the mood of the injectors, and there is no way for you to know how when, if or how bad the problem will happen but based on what I've seen it would be foolish to use these injectors and not expect it.

There are other things which E85 and methanol, or even MTBE (which is used in plenty of other fuels and have similar properties to E85 which can negatively affect fuel systems ) which can cause issues - that is a whole different topic which does cross over into this one, but is actually less scary that what I've actually seen.   I've been unfortunate enough to see the shenanigans these injectors can offer, owners of cars I've been behind the laptop where these injectors have been used have been fortunate enough to have someone that picky that we've noticed things before they became a problem, and as such I'm fortunate enough to not have melted an engine when using these as I've pulled the plug and insisted they get changed before something goes wrong.   I know others who haven't been so lucky.

So yeah, this is my opinion and based arguably on anecdotal evidence - but if anyone wanted a more substantial explanation of why not to use these injectors than "throw them in the bin" or "they're shit", I at least feel like I've done my part to ensure there is something to chew on... take it as you will.

PS.  Just don't.

PPS. Sorry for the overly long rant, I look forward to the TL;DRs and hiding under my rock again until next time I get bored and put my neck out with an opinion. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Lithium

[Steve85]

So yeah, this is my opinion and based arguably on anecdotal evidence - but if anyone wanted a more substantial explanation of why not to use these injectors than "throw them in the bin" or "they're shit", I at least feel like I've done my part to ensure there is something to chew on... take it as you will.
PS.  Just don't.
PPS. Sorry for the overly long rant, I look forward to the TL;DRs and hiding under my rock again until next time I get bored and put my neck out with an opinion. 

Thanks for putting together a post with lots of info and a thought out response.
I read it through (twice if I'm honest) and it makes some sense to me as a noob.
This is the type of info I like coming to SAU for. [emoji16]

[acsplit]

Nothing wro g with a well informed rant.

[RICE RACING]

1 hour ago, Lithium said:

 

OK, I've just read through a bunch of comments which flowed on from here which I agree and disagree with to a varying degree but as usual there is a little mis- or half-information that I don't feel like anyone considering them are getting enough to make an reasonably informed decision and for a change I actually have time on my side today, so I'll answer with more than just the easy "I agree with Micko". 

Like always, this is just my view point - I don't profess to know f**k all and know there are people who do or will imply that I don't, so take that as you will but I think it's worth at least using things people say to base your own research before deciding whether it's bullshit or not.  ESPECIALLY when it comes to injectors, as they literally supply the fuel for your combustion - debating turbos is one thing, making a decision which could cost you a very expensive engine is a different thing altogether.

There are a lot of different things in this topic so I'll try and put some light on the things that usually are or should be on peoples minds about them.  This whole post is SPECIFICALLY about "Bosch 2200cc" / ID2000 injectors.

So I'll focus on these things for the two major areas people talk about these, firstly the relatively academic/harmless area people debate about these injectors and then will ramble about the bigger issues.

ID2000s vs Bosch 2200cc injectors

Straight up, they are the same hardware.  Injector Dynamics themselves do not hide that fact, and put a lot of work into matching them so strictly speaking they are "better" than just going with generic Bosch 2200cc brands.  Check out the link here: http://injectordynamics.com/articles/does-dynamic-matching-really-matter/

There is likely to be less pain tuning ID2000s than generic Bosch 2200cc injectors, but that is missing the point... there is likely to be problems at some point, the question isn't so much if - but how bad, exactly how bad will be under a different heading.

So yeah, that Injector dynamics page IS accurate but it's kind of glossed over things and made out like their injectors will fix drivability issues and the flow as tested has a very small range of error at higher pulse widths - which is kinda true, however they have only plotted down to 2ms total pulse width.  Below is a scatter plot showing rpm vs actual pulse width from a car using these injectors on BP98,   I've set any load points plotted which are under atmospheric to show as green - as it comes into the transition to boost area it will go through from orange to red.   Notice how much of the driving around this car does exists BELOW the 2ms range plotted by ID in their graph?  (note, the flat line around 1ms is due to the affect of a combination of short pulse adder and dead time settings).

These injectors have quite short dead times relative to the flow that they have, and as the linked article suggests - not every injector is made equal.   A significant thing about this is that the dead times between any two injectors can vary by a small amount, if that amount is still significant compared to the average (or the configured....) dead time and you have injectors which flow a heap of fuel for a small amount of open time then the amount of variation in flow between each injector can be very significant.   Because of this fact, as the pulse width gets shorter the potential for deviation in relative flow between each injector increases significantly - the unmatched ones going exponentially different by 2ms, and the ID2000s even are starting to show the trend.   It'd be very interesting to see what would have happened if that chart was shown down to 2ms, it is a shame that they didn't show results closer to the 1ms mark - my logging essentially shows that basically all typical driving on pump gas will be done below the pulsewidths that they will be operating with.

Those variations in flow DO matter if you give a shit about drivability, it is the kind of thing that causes shitty starts, hesitations at transient throttle, less than ideal idle quality and such forth.   They can be glossed over by tuning them to run richer mixtures, but still bear in mind that this is a band aid - and one that's not lovely.  The variation in flow between cylinders in different situations is still going to be there, it's just been masked.   This may not bother everyone, and will obviously be less of an issue with E85 where you immediately add >30% to your pulse widths for a given amount of airflow - but then this is the most trivial concern with using these injectors, so I'll move on to the bigger concerns.

These injectors are CNG injectors

The implications of this seem to be mostly poorly understood or communicated.  I'm not going to profess to know heaps about it to be honest, I am not an injector engineer and don't know a lot about how they work *but* this whole tuning lark is like that.   Everyone knows some of the picture,  doubt the f**k out of anyone who is 100% confident on everything they are talking about.  I do feel there are some basic points which aren't questioned or discussed and they are pretty meaningful here.  Hear me out...

When the "CNG injectors" thing comes up, it is usually when discussing E85 use.  That is kind of true, they are not designed to use E85.   People talk about them being "OK" if they use stainless internals.... welllll..... that is only part of the picture and that certainly doesn't make them safer.   

It is true, they aren't designed to use on E85 - but that's more to do with the fact that E85 is a fluid and they are NOT DESIGNED TO WORK WITH FLUIDS.   Any fluid.   Here is something from the horses mouth:

So what does this mean?   I can't say exactly what the behaviour inside is, how long it takes, how likely it is to happen etc but I have had the misfortune of having to deal with cars running these injectors and I am finicky enough to analyse the shit out of everything and identify things that are not working the way they should be and try and work out what or how the problem is occuring.   A lot of people don't run into issues, from what I've seen they are either lucky or just are not paying enough attention to realise what is going on.  Likely a bit of both.

What I do know is that these injectors can change how much they flow over time when used with fluids.  That can be a mixture between immediate, and longer term.  There are PLENTY of cases where people have run into tuning issues or even engine failures and returned them to a supplier who has tested them and found that where they previously were ~2200cc/min at 3bar they are now <2000cc min with possibly a greater margain of error between the injectors.   That has been previously deemed not enough to cause the issues seen, they've been given some love and back to their previous flow level and everyone has been happy.  At least temporarily.

This is where things get scarier though, their flow behaviour can change on a much more minor time scale.  Like in the period of half an hour, with no tune changes, the same IAT/ECT and basically all typical variables within a range where you would expect a minimum variance in flow.   I'm talking well over 10% in flow, with a significant error between each injector.   It seems like it can be associated with fuel temperature, and likely is - however this is not a consistent error...  corrected volumetric to mass flow calculations which take into account fuel temperature will not fix this, as it isn't about the density of the fuel changing.  It's about how the actual injectors are delivering the fuel, essentially delivering an inconsistent fuel volume for the same pulse width at different times.   

It is not a huge leap to make to assume that this can be attributed to the whole "swelling behaviour of elastomer seal in liquid media" thing - which is not a one way street with this kind of material.  Basically they can swell and contract depending on temperature and exposure to fluids, the elastomer seal is designed to stop a gas from seeping past the injector when the injector is not meant to be allowing fuel through - and the upshot of this is there is a thing which is not intended to be used in a way which can cause it to swell and contract means that the rate which it does it is not consistent in any way.   They are meant to be dry.    

The upshot of this is that when you hear about these cases where a car has had a lean out on these injectors and hurt an engine, the injectors have blamed for being "blocked" due to E85.... that absolutely can be the case, but every now and then you hear about the injectors being tested and they've turned out fine and things get messier - this is where the horror starts.   You don't need E85 to cause this issue.  You don't need foreign contaminants.   The injectors can return back (more or less) to the flow behaviour they had before and not give any hint that one or many of the injectors at one point during operation may have dropped to  <2000cc/min of flow on a car tuned assuming 2200cc/min flow potential.  A cylinder which was happy running 30psi on E85 at 11.5:1 (petrol scale because most people seem to talk in that even on E85) may not be so stoked with running 13.0:1.   The same car can richen up or lean out further depending on the mood of the injectors, and there is no way for you to know how when, if or how bad the problem will happen but based on what I've seen it would be foolish to use these injectors and not expect it.

There are other things which E85 and methanol, or even MTBE (which is used in plenty of other fuels and have similar properties to E85 which can negatively affect fuel systems ) which can cause issues - that is a whole different topic which does cross over into this one, but is actually less scary that what I've actually seen.   I've been unfortunate enough to see the shenanigans these injectors can offer, owners of cars I've been behind the laptop where these injectors have been used have been fortunate enough to have someone that picky that we've noticed things before they became a problem, and as such I'm fortunate enough to not have melted an engine when using these as I've pulled the plug and insisted they get changed before something goes wrong.   I know others who haven't been so lucky.

So yeah, this is my opinion and based arguably on anecdotal evidence - but if anyone wanted a more substantial explanation of why not to use these injectors than "throw them in the bin" or "they're shit", I at least feel like I've done my part to ensure there is something to chew on... take it as you will.

PS.  Just don't.

PPS. Sorry for the overly long rant, I look forward to the TL;DRs and hiding under my rock again until next time I get bored and put my neck out with an opinion. 

Farken Jezuz Kunt, just wanted to quote this as its the longest post I ever seen.

Either way good job Lez

[GTSBoy]

My one anal retentive addition/correction to Lith's rant is that gas is a fluid too.  He means liquids.

[Lithium]

14 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

My one anal retentive addition/correction to Lith's rant is that gas is a fluid too.  He means liquids.

Lol Jesus. I should have proof read, but yes I did and I'm sure people get it but thanks haha

[welshy_32ZILA]

Wow what did i miss. Lol

Anyway, slowly chipping away at the install. Dummy fitted the new 8474. Looks good, 1 thing that's annoying. Order 1k worth of fittings line etc and start making the lines, realize you still need another 300 worth of fittings you missed. 

Just my 2c On the quality of the 8474, purely external. wheels look awesome, rear housing is nice, front cover lets it down. Casting lumps, the maching and casting matching is not real flash. Ill throw up some more photos. 

[welshy_32ZILA]

pics of casting dags. 

Don't get me wrong they're not huge but what will be a Close to 4kish turbo to anyone is Aus id have hoped for a bit nicer casting. 

[Lithium]

Looking like it's coming together nicely, and yeah the EFRs aren't the prettiest - a shame they seem to have done an aesthetically nicer job with the SX-E range.. though that doesn't make things go any better.

Also I can't remember if it was discussed earlier, what fuel pumps are you using?  Your injectors really should be capable of supporting a fair bit of power.

[Lithium]

Thought I would just throw this in here...

[welshy_32ZILA]

Cheers lith, twin 044s so not the best setup but should be good for where I'm aiming. I've given the front housing a coat of black hi temp to see if i like it now. See how that goes in covering the casting imperfections. 

That bw in the pic u posted isn't a 9280? No black front wheel, unless they got to it before bw got it anodized. 

[Lithium]

7 minutes ago, welshy_32ZILA said:

That bw in the pic u posted isn't a 9280? No black front wheel, unless they got to it before bw got it anodized. 

I just assumed they used a pic of the old EFR9180 they ran, but perhaps it was a prototype one they ran which didn't have the black compressor.  Either way they've had an EFR9280 on the car since last year and the results they were talking about were definitely the black series.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Lithium

[sneakey pete]

Booked a tune in on mine finally. 

Thinking of putting in a softer spring in the IWG-75 and running the 4 port again, was only at ~20% duty cycle last time from memory with 14psi spring running 25PSI, there was trouble trying to stop overshoot etc. Have springs to make it 12psi already, what do people think it'll do with that, or should I aim lower?